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Windows 7 Thread, Another Windows 7 vs Linux Story [And Apple] in Technical; Originally Posted by tmcd35 Convergance technology is a dead end and always has been. It seems like a pot of ...
  1. #16

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Convergance technology is a dead end and always has been. It seems like a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow until you get up close. The problem with using voice recognition to dictate an essay on to a cloud wordprocessor on your TV is not the power of voice recogonition. It's the arguements.

    WIFE - I want to watch eastenders
    SON - I want to play Finaly Fantasy XXXII
    DAD - You can't I need to to complete a report for the morning
    Completely, 100% disagree. The average house now has multiple TV's in it. They are now HD TV's, so display of text is much more acceptable.


    Raise your hands all you amature bedroom programmers, You iphone app creators, you web page designers.
    There is no way you could claim the average user does any of those things, lol.

    No offence, but I think you under estermate what the 'average' home user uses a computer for. Theres a lot of people with a lot of serious hobbies out there. Especially in the world of music, video and photo.
    No, you are over-estimating what they do. Having repaired, advised on, or plain out purchased the computers of about 30% of the staff in our school, I would have to say that every one of them fits well within the 'average' grouping. The average user is not someone who spends their time creating apps, editing photos (past red eye removal etc...), or making hollywood movies...

    Without significant money spent on high speed internet connections and serious server farms even a budding amature photographer would get discontented with 'the cloud'.
    No-one said this would happen tomorrow.

    I'm not saying that the cloud isn't going to be big and important. It's just not the replacement to the desktop. Joe Average does actually use some of that power on his desk.
    I'm saying that your view is shortsighted and based on current tech, not based on the way tech changes. 20 years ago, having the amount of computers we do now was seen as absurd...

    Besides back OT. The argument isn't wether touchscreens can work or if the cloud will ever be useful. The arguement is Windows vs Linux vs Mac (again). If we agree that the desktop will not die (regardless of if we use speech recognition or a keyboard or a touchscreen). Even if it's primary purpose is to access the cloud. Then we need a desktop OS.
    No, we do not need a desktop OS - that is the point. Stop tying yourself to the present! Think about what IT was like a decade ago. 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Things change very rapidly. In 10 years time, do you really think we'll still be doing things in exactly the same way we do now? No.

    The issue is that the 'OS' will become irrelevant. Much like the DOS did (remember, Windows used to run on top of a DOS - MS tried to sustain the life of that product for as long as possible before it eventually died). The same is true of the OS.

  2. #17
    Galway's Avatar
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    I think, given the cost of hardware and everything, there will cetainly be divergence.
    People will experiment ... the tech savy with try linux and some will even prefer it, but windows will be the OS of choice for the next 20 years at least.

    People will try duel booting, and virtualisation to cater for the software they want to run. Freeware and opensource for the PC has limited the need as yet to have the apps you need on a budget.

    Security has been the drive for the earlly adopters, but the cost of owning Microsoft and the ease at which XP can be installed without cost has held this off for many. I know lots of people who use dodgy keys and use XP ilegal. If they couldnt then yes .. Linux would be more popular.

    The problem is it is, at the moment, too complicated for the "normal" user to sort problems out with Linux to make it viable for these users.


    I think if there was a 'wine for windows' then this would be a killer for the users who use Linux for certain things.

    Microsoft is doing the right thing to maintain dominance, but the more it is used in a comercial environment the more people will use it at home.

    I have tried Linux, and while I admire the idea, MS has allways been my prefered choice ... more so now im using 7 on 3 of my regualar boxes and only use Linux as a play toy.

    Linux is just not ready or polished enough to make the switch anytime soon.

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    teejay's Avatar
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    Personally, I think the big problem with cloud computing is data ownership. For me, there is no way I'll stick my personal data in the cloud, I want it at home on my own storage thank you very much.

    As for Linux vs W7, I'm a big Linux fan and have used it since the 90's. As a server OS it's the best, as a desktop OS it's good but not great. Still use it a lot on the desktop but find myself working in W7 more and more because I'm finding it just works better and just doesn't have so many annoying little niggles.

  4. #19

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    People will experiment ... the tech savy with try linux and some will even prefer it, but windows will be the OS of choice for the next 20 years at least.
    The reason for M$'s dominance is Windows is installed as standard for free with all new computers. Windows will remain the dominant OS until that changes. I think that change has alread started - Dell/HP/et al offing Ubuntu via thier website. I don't think Windows has 10 years of dominance left in it.

    Uptill now thier hasn't really been a suitable alternative. Linux is now getting to the point were it is a suitable alternative. As soon as HP/Dell can offer the same as they do now without having to pay M$ to install Windows they will.

    This is why companies such as HP and IBM have invested so much in Linux development over the past decade.

    The problem is it is, at the moment, too complicated for the "normal" user to sort problems out with Linux to make it viable for these users.
    Agreed, but with each new release of Fedora and Ubuntu I see this argument slipping away more and more. It's only a matter of time.

    I have tried Linux, and while I admire the idea, MS has allways been my prefered choice ... more so now im using 7 on 3 of my regualar boxes and only use Linux as a play toy.

    Linux is just not ready or polished enough to make the switch anytime soon.
    Agreed. I think Linux is still a toy for most techie users. A second OS in a VM to play with when the mood takes. But again I say come the release of Windows 8 - what 3 years away? - Linux will make some huge leaps forward over a three year period.

    For arguments sake look at OpenOffice 2 compare to OpenOffice 3. OpenOffice 2 was frustatingly difficult to use. OpenOffice 3 is a real contender against M$ Office. What do we think OpenOffice 4 will be like? The latest Ubuntu is a real contender, what will Ubuntu 10 be like?

  5. #20

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Completely, 100% disagree. The average house now has multiple TV's in it. They are now HD TV's, so display of text is much more acceptable.
    And the TV is not the interface that people want to use for this purpose. If they did it would have taken off years ago. There be some integration with media services and basic webservices but wholesale computing no. The TV will compliment other solutions and not be the solution in itself - IMHO.

    No, you are over-estimating what they do. Having repaired, advised on, or plain out purchased the computers of about 30% of the staff in our school, I would have to say that every one of them fits well within the 'average' grouping. The average user is not someone who spends their time creating apps, editing photos (past red eye removal etc...), or making hollywood movies...
    YES, I probably am over=estimating. But only in as much as you are underestimating. People do not spend £1000 on a piece of tin just to surf facebook. People have other hobbies and interest that are wide and verid and the computer in some way compliments. This is even more true for the sub-20yrs generation who have grown up with modern computing.


    I'm saying that your view is shortsighted and based on current tech, not based on the way tech changes. 20 years ago, having the amount of computers we do now was seen as absurd...
    No I'm not. What I am saying is that I have seen nothing yet that warrants a change in paradigm. The desktop model works quiet well. I don't believe that the cloud model is the panacia the media would have us believe it is. It's a solution to a neche problem, it may gow in popularity. If it does it will be part of a wider solution that includes desktops, tv convergance, mobile phones, etc.

    No, we do not need a desktop OS - that is the point. Stop tying yourself to the present! Think about what IT was like a decade ago. 20 years ago, 30 years ago. Things change very rapidly. In 10 years time, do you really think we'll still be doing things in exactly the same way we do now? No.
    No we won't doing things the same as we d now. I for one am looking forward to seeing how things progress and change. I think the mobile market is the one to watch. Smaller laptops, more powerful smartphones. But even then some applications will always be more convinent using the power and storage of a local desktop.

    Even if the cloud id the answer the devices we use will always need some form of local OS to manage our connection and interfaces between us and the cloud. This is one area were Linux is already making huge inroads - netbooks, android, setop boxes, etc. So again I stand by my argument, Linux will one way or another upsurp Windows. Probably within the next decade. Just not yet.

  6. #21
    llawwehttam's Avatar
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    Personally I prefer linux to MS. Im an A level student and have been using different linux distros for years and feel way more comfortable with linux than with MS. Apple has its uses especially in the design, art and music industry and is nice and shiny for home use but linux is more free in every way. Obviously the price is an issue but the way in which you can modify and play with your system is much better on linux. Its so easy to make new splash screens, new themes and login windows and personalize linux.

    I see Linux (and UNIX) as the future, I mean look at how fast Apple have risen from what they used to be. RHEL (red hat enterprise linux) and solaris are becoming far more popular in businesses. My school/6th form uses a mix of linux (fedora), MS and apple, and out of the three i prefer the linux. Its faster, easier to use, nicer looking and far more customizable.

    Now that Dell and several other companies are selling Personal computers with Ubuntu and servers with a choice of linux distro Linux is starting to seem like a much bigger contender. All linux needs to become more common at home is more advertising. The amount of MS adverts out there is huge but the only places I see adverts for linux distro's is on the Internet in geeky sites and forums.

    LINUX NEEDS MORE ADVERTS!!!

  7. #22

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    And the TV is not the interface that people want to use for this purpose. If they did it would have taken off years ago. There be some integration with media services and basic webservices but wholesale computing no. The TV will compliment other solutions and not be the solution in itself - IMHO.
    Why would it have? We didn't have high speed internet, HD TV's and cloud computing then. The key thing is that these techs are coming to maturity, people are using them more and more, and convergence into a single home style device (your TV) is becoming more and more probable. The Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 show this quite well.


    YES, I probably am over=estimating. But only in as much as you are underestimating. People do not spend £1000 on a piece of tin just to surf facebook. People have other hobbies and interest that are wide and verid and the computer in some way compliments. This is even more true for the sub-20yrs generation who have grown up with modern computing.
    Most people don't spend £1000 on computers - plain and simple. Most sales of computers are on low-end hardware (Celeron based machines for example). You are looking at the overall use of computers from a very narrow point of view - think of people over 30, over 40, over 50 etc... that use computers. There are a lot more people over these ages than there are under 20.

    Think of the population of China that is now dominating the internet. Or India. There are more people who just use computers for the internet and related fields than do for other things.

    No I'm not. What I am saying is that I have seen nothing yet that warrants a change in paradigm. The desktop model works quiet well. I don't believe that the cloud model is the panacia the media would have us believe it is. It's a solution to a neche problem, it may gow in popularity. If it does it will be part of a wider solution that includes desktops, tv convergance, mobile phones, etc.

    No we won't doing things the same as we d now. I for one am looking forward to seeing how things progress and change. I think the mobile market is the one to watch. Smaller laptops, more powerful smartphones. But even then some applications will always be more convinent using the power and storage of a local desktop.
    We'll see...

  8. #23

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Why would it have? We didn't have high speed internet, HD TV's and cloud computing then.
    Skys Red Button, CDTV, CDi, WebTV - just a few pretender to the throne I can name that didn't capture the puplics imagination. The reason the PS3 and XBox360 are working to a lesser extent is because they sit readily with the TV's native function - an entertainment device. The reason the TV will never be a wordprocessor is because it's primary function is entertainment. Sell a TV as a wordprocessor, telephone (videophone), even as a web connection for banking and e-mails and the public are not interested.

    You are looking at the overall use of computers from a very narrow point of view - think of people over 30, over 40, over 50 etc... that use computers. There are a lot more people over these ages than there are under 20.
    Sorry the point was this years sub-20's are next years 50's plus. These guys and girls have and are growing up with the technology and are demanding more from it. Just because my mother doesn't want to edit photo's today doesn't mean my niece want want to do that ans more when she is 50!

  9. #24

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    I will be honest, linux has a LONG LONG way to go before it will get up to MS levels of usage at home and business (including apple). I have never really had an expience with linux where I have thought "yeh that made my life easier/less hassle" and thats the truth of it. I use linux for some servers but on the whole its too much pain to switch. I know I could do it but its a case of relearning tons and tbh I doubt it would ever be a *better* experience.
    I am quite good with all things technical and I wouldnt even both with linux tbh so I dont expect anyone less technical too. Yeh its interesting, yeh its free but I want to be able to run all the software I have on windows and all the games etc and linux is not even close. Wine helps but its never going to be the goto solution for your average home user, they will get frustrated and give up. Look at netbooks, they ALL came with linux initially but as soon as XP was avalible they all switched as thats what the consumer wanted because its what they know and they know it will work (and they can get support!)
    Even with Apple giving you what is effectively a supported linux install, its still not really growing against MS (and yeh there are fanboys saying it is but its so marginal a trend its pointless) and even then those with Apples all seem to use bootcamp/vmware etc to run windows as the truth of it is you still need windows for the majority of things because it is GOOD! and until an OS can tick all the boxes for games/software etc they wont compete.
    Its like saying the Zune will blow the iPod away because it had strong sales and sales were up X percentage, its still only means going from 1% say to 2% of market share and lets face it, the zune probably wont nor really any other.
    As for the cloud, it has its uses but I personally hate most of those crappy apps (google docs wtf!) as they are so poor by comparison to the REAL thing.
    Openoffice fails as well tbh, it promises the world but when I use it or my GF we hate its limitations/interface over 2007 ribbon by a mile. Yeh its free but MS office is cheap for familys and I would always pay a little to save myself pain.
    Home users generally want simple and safe, and with windows they get that. Even the mac users want windows because Mac cant make its O/S do it all even though it has shed loads of cash.

    This is all before we look at businesses where the situation is more of a joke, you simply dont get the tools/software for linux/apple like you do for MS ware. There is no way we could replace windows here as so much of what windows is, is orientated for business and that makes it a damn sight easier to setup and manage.

    I am not saying its impossible but I cant see it happening in the next 5 years and tbh if something radical came along MS have to much to lose to not jump on the wagon with the rest and still keep its install base.

  10. #25


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    We gave our cover supervisors Ubuntu on their laptops. It's proved to be very popular.
    Truth is that Linux is ready for the desktop, and has been for some time. It's fine for PC noobs, and it's even better for experts. The people who find it difficult and are unappreciative are those in between, or those in the situation where they are using lots of windows anyway and it's easier to keep the status quo.

  11. 2 Thanks to CyberNerd:

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  12. #26
    llawwehttam's Avatar
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    Truth is that Linux is ready for the desktop, and has been for some time. It's fine for PC noobs, and it's even better for experts. The people who find it difficult and are unappreciative are those in between, or those in the situation where they are using lots of windows anyway and it's easier to keep the status quo.
    I definitely agree there. Experts and noobs are fine to give linux to but when you try to feed linux to someone in between they complain because its not in their comport zone so they freak out.

    For instance this is the response of a friend during a MS vs Linux conversation.

    linux is aload of bull, end off ^_^
    And as the conversation went on it just proved he thought he knew everything about computers and linux just wasn't in his comfort zone.

    I guess you just like what you've used most and know most about.

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