vBCms Comments Thread, EduGeek in the TES With Your Comments. in ; ...
4th May 2010, 12:35 AM #16
In my school we have to get three quotes for anything above £1000. I mean everything.
However, with some computer software there is only one supplier so as long as we can prove this then that is fine.
Like a previous comment, I have sorted my inbox so that everything is there. I keep it in there until the Auditor arrives and signs it off. I then delete that folder.
4th May 2010, 08:50 AM #17
Sounds like a good idea for a section/bulletin type thing to be honest. Every six months or so doing out a sheet of hardware suitable for each type of work and about how much it should cost. I agree with the fact that it would need continuous updating as tech moves quite fast and any static information is going to be misleading unless it is clear when it was valid and how long it is likely to be valid for.
4th May 2010, 10:48 AM #18
One problem with regards to pricing machines regarding to spec is that it doesn't take into account the manufacturer and other considerations such as standard configuration, chipsets and such for imaging purposes. As an example a quick search of a well known online IT supplier brings up the following desktop machines prices.
Notice that between some manufacturers there is a difference of over £100.00 for that same spec machine, but I know many people wouldn’t touch the cheaper one due to the brand. Once you start looking at laptops it becomes even more complex.
I think such a resource would be great but also due to the nature of hardware and prices it would need to be regularly updated to stay relevant.
4th May 2010, 11:03 AM #19
Personally I think looking at specs based on roles would be a better option. That way you have a spec, the length of warranty needed, etc and you can go to a range of suppliers with it and get the best price for the system you want, including any support requirements.
This would take a break down of software though ... looking at the range of software for education, servers and their roles, etc.
4th May 2010, 11:09 AM #20
Thats good thinking Grumbledook. I would prefer to see it based along application of hardware rather than brand specific hardware. Then post up guideline pricing - EG lowest brand price to highest brand price.
4th May 2010, 11:18 AM #21
This is where we start to over complicate things, which is what we want to avoid. What we want to do is to stop schools getting ripped off. If we simply state that, for example, laptops will cost:
Originally Posted by SYSMAN_MK
Low range - £350 to £450
Mid range - £450 to £600
High range - £600+
A head who is reading this will know that if their supplier is to charge them £600 for a laptop that was asked for as a basic model, will know they are getting ripped off. Naturally we shall have the first couple of chapters\articles covering puchasing, warranties, support etc and how these will add to the cost and to factor these in, but as a quick guide, that is all they need to know. It is quick, it is dirty, but as long as it makes bosses stop, pause and question then so much the better.
Last edited by Dos_Box; 4th May 2010 at 01:27 PM.
5th May 2010, 01:00 AM #22
Cursed by a rusty security 'mindset', I first think the idea has merit and inevitably gravitate towards ways to break it.. sorry.
To begin there is this line in the report: all of these initiatives may be struggling for awareness among many heads. How would an Edugeek initiative overcome that very real difficulty?
Reasonable price ranges for computers are relatively easy but that is a fraction of the problem, not a central theme in the report which includes examples of 'rip-offs' concerning configuration and maintenance tasks, photocopiers, power points, building work etc. Focusing just on ICT, some areas are extremely difficult to pin down with any great accuracy e.g. what is a fair price for packaging some random s/w? There are plenty more where that came from and I genuinely think providing sufficient coverage of the necessary angles is quite a tricky job.
There is a risk that enumerating basic features and tasks that should be present might be taken as the sum-total of what any school needs from their support. Care required.
Primary, primary, primary! Many Secondary concepts do NOT fit.
Finally if you do pursue this then please devote at least some of it towards the school's expectations and responsibilities, and in particular towards what might be summarised as 'change management'. The very best of techs and thus the school's system can easily be undermined by frequent change and unreasonable requirements i.e. the kind of things that sometimes feature in one of those frustrated rants BtRD.
Last edited by PiqueABoo; 5th May 2010 at 01:15 AM.
5th May 2010, 12:14 PM #23
I think we also need 'When to replace things' in the booklet!
5th May 2010, 12:28 PM #24
Hmmm ... not really ... I think it should be "how to plan when to replace things." It might sound like I am being picky but it really does vary from school to school. One school might choose to replace hardware which is out of warranty and running an 'old' OS, but another school might use the old boxes as thin clients or stick linux on it. Some schools might not want to do this as they have an existing scheme of work that works very well and moving to different OS and apps could actually be more costly on teacher time than to just cough up for fresher kit. It has to be planned around the curriculum and not the kit.
Originally Posted by Mr.Ben
5th May 2010, 12:48 PM #25
The opportunity to take advantage of schools is even greater where a 'specialist' service is being provided; simple things like power sockets, network points have been mentioned before, but what about something obvious like cleaning a filter in a projector hung from a sports-hall or assembly hall ceiling? Or how about installing 'all in one' IWB systems or equipment that has to be fixed to the building structure safely?
Should the school be doing it? Does the school have staff trained to work at height? Does it have the necessary ladders & safety equipment? Or does it bring in a contractor & risk being ripped off?
5th May 2010, 12:59 PM #26
As with all things like that, if you bring in a contractor you get quotes and choose the best option. There is a difficult balance though ... for some schools they may contract their support out to people who will also do AV installs. That is fine, but you just need to periodically test the market for installation prices. When you get a quote from an installer you should always have a breakdown of costs and you might want to challenge any single cost item, eg installing power sockets in the ceiling for the projector. If you are getting a quote for the hardware *&* installation then also get some test quotes on the hardware on its own. You may be getting the best deal in the world on installation costs but be paying a premium mark-up on the hardware. The many decent companies out there doing tech support for schools will give you the breakdown as well as the option to source the hardware yourself.
Always remember though within this cost saving exercise that the time of the person in the school who is managing this and making decisions needs to be taken into account. That is also a cost.
5th May 2010, 03:36 PM #27
That is a better use of English than me GrumbleDook and I agree.....
Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
Hang on, that sounds like FITS, which having done the course (and excellent it was too!) covered a lot of this, and as the article says, is getting very little attention from those who have the ultimate responsibility.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the tail wagging the dog rather than how it should be, the dog (SMT :-)) wagging the tail (Me!)
To play devils advocate though here are a few statements:
Why not have reasonable timeframes to replace equipment? I produce plans to replace all of our kit over 6 years and pass them onto the Bursar so we can plan ahead. We have also agreed the maximum amount of connected devices that we can afford (this is reviewed annually)
Re-using old equipment once it has been replaced can be dangerous, especially in schools who pay for support, the support cost will eventually exceed the cost of replacement, I do work for a support company from time to time and we charge £35 - £40 an hour.
And what about when it does die? - How critical has it become - Have you then ended up with an unrealistic amount of machines to replace?
Schools/LA's should be investing in training Teachers to use more Modern/Different Applications/OSes when required. 'Teacher Time' won't be affected then. As for the compatibility issue, virtulisation can fix this but you can always use newer versions of the software.
How about Student time? - In a couple of years time most students will be using newer versions of OSes and Apps than we have in our Schools (Vista/7) are we expecting them to learn the nuances of XP/ Office 2003, will they be using it when they leave into the world of work in 7 years time?
Shouldn't basic IT literacy be transferable between applications and OS'es?
Primaries all have a paid position called the ICT Co-ordinator who from experience has very little training in how to manage the admin/purchasing side of a network. Should we be training them?
It really annoys me how slow Qualification boards are on updating qualifications - the WJEC exam this year still referenced Floppy disks. Most of the Students taking the exam had never used one!
Why don't LA's buy machines/licences for their Schools in bulk, therefore decreasing cost and the amount of paperwork everyone has to do?
Last edited by Mr.Ben; 5th May 2010 at 04:10 PM.
Reason: Typos and Grammer Errors - You should judge me.
Thanks to Mr.Ben from:
GrumbleDook (5th May 2010)
5th May 2010, 10:19 PM #28
You think? I live with someone who is paid to be a Primary teacher. They recently got tagged with that co-ord role (can't think why!) in addition to another they got earlier, and they're not paid anything more or given any extra time for either of them.
Primaries all have a paid position called the ICT
Third time lucky: This thread remains stubbornly Secondary-centric whereas the report wasn't. I'm beginning to doubt whether Edugeek-as-a-whole can help the sector that apparently needs it most.
Thanks to PiqueABoo from:
GrumbleDook (5th May 2010)
5th May 2010, 10:31 PM #29
Yes ... it is an issue that the a lot of what is needed in primary schools is not the same as secondary, nor is it that it can be managed exactly the same way, however there are some good common practices about how IT and IT facilities can be managed in a school. A lot of these are in FITS but with everything that goes on with running a school it is hard to get in-roads with Heads sometimes, even at LA level.
At least this report gives me some leverage to ask the question of schools about addressing it.
6th May 2010, 09:48 AM #30
Apologies Pique-A-Boo, it's a paid position here (I'm a large Special School with Students from Reception to Post 16).
Originally Posted by PiqueABoo
Perhaps that's where some of the problems lie in Primaries, it's just not taken seriously enough in smaller organisations, and Edugeekers can help - we have the experience and as far as security, change management, licencing and all the other things that go with FITS they should be no different.
My previous employment seemed to have it sorted, we were a secondary that supported the surrounding primaries (10 of them), but change management and organisation of the ICT co-ordinators was non existant, so we were making the changes for them, which is the wrong way to do it, but they did not engage with us unless necessary!
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