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Thin Client and Virtual Machines Thread, Fat v. thin v. multi-seat client showdown in Technical; Originally Posted by Ric_ You could provide a similar setup using TS Web Gateway (I think that's what it is ...
  1. #31

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_ View Post
    You could provide a similar setup using TS Web Gateway (I think that's what it is called) which may mean that you could scale down the number of end devices you have. It will also allow students to access computer resources within lessons.
    TS Gateway + RemoteApp, this is what we use for staff to do reports as the dodgy app is located on a TS server and then just a link to that app is pushed out to the staff laptops via an automaticly generated MSI. All they need to do is double click this on their laptop from anywhere where they have internet access and they can do reports. You still need XP SP3+ or the latest Mac versions to access this though as it uses the newer RDP protocols which allow for single windows to be sent instead of entire screens.

    The feature seems to work really well at both schools that I have implemented it at as staff loved the ease of just opening it like any other app and using it seamlessly from wherever. Your external connector should cover this for student laptops to so with TS Gateway, RemoteApp and TS all on the same server it should all be covered under the one package.

    From inside the network the RemoteApp links will try to connect directly first so if the students are inside the network then these would be able to be just bare RDP streams which puts less load on the server. HTTPS can be forced in all instances though if you want this.

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    dhicks (5th July 2010)

  3. #32
    DMcCoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_ View Post
    @dhicks: I've watched this thread a little and something else that your users might like is the ability to use their own machines. We use Cirix Secure Gateway to provide access to XenApp for our lot and they reckon it's better than using our thin client devices (not had the heart to tell them that it is the same system barring some of the devices not having the latest HDX tech).

    You could provide a similar setup using TS Web Gateway (I think that's what it is called) which may mean that you could scale down the number of end devices you have. It will also allow students to access computer resources within lessons.

    Just something to think about there
    How do you license? I had a look at Citrix but it was eye wateringly expensive, as it's in addition to TS licensing. Or do you just limit the number of connections as it's a concurrent license? (at least the Citrix bit!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_ View Post
    @dhicks: I've watched this thread a little and something else that your users might like is the ability to use their own machines.
    I originally started off this thread with the idea that I wanted to best way to provide 30 workstations in our sixthform. No matter what method I looked at (PCs, thin clients, mult-seat machines) I always came out around 10,000 - a bit more for dedicated PCs, maybe a bit less for thin clients, but not much in it. This is mainly due to Microsoft's licensing - if we didn't pay for that we could get the whole lot sorted for around 3,000, no problem.

    I think we've decided we can't really afford 10,000 for the sixth form right at the moment, and they can be trusted with their own laptops anyway - I'm planning to upgrade the existing PCs in their rooms and sort out a 4-seat machine for general use.

    The Terminal Services server is now being looked at to provide workstations for the prep school - 18 in the main prep IT room, maybe a dozen or so scattered around the school. This would also give us a 30-client-capable TS server for use by staff or pupils from home, if we pay 2,000 for an external connector license. I have a bunch of existing computers I wish to use as thin clients, which leaves me a dozen or so thin client devices of some sort to find.

    I can buy a dedicated thin client device for 150-ish - that's for a "no operating system" device, which I assume simply means that it has a small OS on internal solid state storage of some sort that is difficult to update or change. For pretty much the same amount I can buy a whole Acer PC small enough to screw to the back of a monitor and that can run any OS you like (and/or can pay for).

    The only problem with buying the Acer PCs, or simply using any older PC to hand, is that I can only get them to support RDP 5.2 with free software. Therefore, I need to buy some sort of RDP 7 client software or buy a system that replaces RDP and provides its own bootable-on-any-hardware client OS - 2X or similar.

    I've bought a copt of Windows Server 2008 R2, I plan to install that on a test server and see how well it works with a test install of 2X's system.

    --
    David Hicks

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    Re: Fat v. thin v. multi-seat client showdown

    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    The average price for a new, modern, RDP 7-capable thin client device seems to be around 150. We would then need to spend around 50-ish on CALs per device. Thin clients require a server - a Dell T610 capable of handling 30-odd Windows clients is around 2,000, so call that 50 per client. Screens are still 100, so that's 350 per client compared with 400 per client for a Windows 7 machine - 10,500 for 30 compared with 12,000 for 30. That hardly seems worth the bother - you get something a little bit cheaper that has trouble running multimedia.

    --
    David Hicks
    David, there are three issues here: upfront cost, user experience, and ongoing costs.

    Terminal Services: Pro: low license cost, Cons: graphics experience, app compatibility, not full Windows OS - no fault isolation and performance impact

    *snip*
    No unauthorised advertising for your company on here please!
    Last edited by john; 8th July 2010 at 12:08 AM. Reason: removed unathorised advertising

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriskvz View Post
    Terminal Services: Pro: low license cost, Cons: graphics experience, app compatibility, not full Windows OS - no fault isolation and performance impact
    I don't know if I'm all that worried about application compatibility or fault isolation - I rather figure if SIMS works then most things should. I should have thought that not being separated into VMs would be an advantage to most applications - no need to reserve a separate chunk of memory for 20 copies of the same application, just have it in memory once and run 20 threads over it (or do modern VM systems share bits of memory anyway?). As I've pointed out above, if we expect to do anything sound-related on our thin clients then we need something better than RDP 5.2, but 2X would seem to offer such a solution for around 25 per client.

    if you repurpose your PCs as end-points, 0 for the endpoints. You can transition these to thin-clients over time.
    Would those be thin client devices that have to support your own protocol? Can we only get those from you?

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    David Hicks

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    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    I originally started off this thread with the idea that I wanted to best way to provide 30 workstations in our sixthform. No matter what method I looked at (PCs, thin clients, mult-seat machines) I always came out around 10,000 - a bit more for dedicated PCs, maybe a bit less for thin clients, but not much in it. This is mainly due to Microsoft's licensing - if we didn't pay for that we could get the whole lot sorted for around 3,000, no problem.
    whaooooa! I'm I reading that right? 7k for MS licensing? What are they doing, supplying you with gold plated master discs? Although, 10k does sound about right for 30 stations. I pay closer to 12.5k for fat clients.

    One question I would have would be around the licensing model. I think we worked out, above, that you are using the Open License agreement. What sort of volume of MS license purchases do you make over a three year period? Surely you could get a better deal on a Select Agreement (not the Academic Subscription)? Could you not set up a buying consortium with other schools to get cheaper select pricing? I really think, even for a private school, you're paying way over the odds on edu licensing fees.

    The only problem with buying the Acer PCs, or simply using any older PC to hand, is that I can only get them to support RDP 5.2 with free software. Therefore, I need to buy some sort of RDP 7 client software or buy a system that replaces RDP and provides its own bootable-on-any-hardware client OS - 2X or similar.
    Forgive my ignorance, but what are the differences between RDP 5.2 and RDP 7? Is there anything their that you really need? I've recently set up a new TS here for our admin team and rdesktop on Thinstation works fine for everything I can think of doing on these machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    Would those be thin client devices that have to support your own protocol? Can we only get those from you?

    --
    David Hicks
    David, Kaviza is protocol agnostic, meaning that it is an open platform that supports multiple protocols including RDP. Kaviza has licensed one of the best protocols in the industry - the HDX/ICA protocol made by Citrix, which is a proven technology for delivering high-definition multi-media experiences in virtual environments.

    A wide variety of thin-clients support HDX, just look for a HDX-ready thin-client (Wyse, IGel, 10Zig, DevonIT, etc) all offer these. You can also download the free Citrix plug-in on any client to access the virtual desktops - e.g. use this to repurpose a PC as an end-point.

    To answer your question on memory usage - yes, Kaviza optimizes on memory usage via linked clones and other technologies. The key is that you can run any application that currently runs on your PC in the virtual desktop environment without any porting or compatibility issues. Plus, management costs are typically sizably lower because you only have to patch/upgrade the one or few golden images the desktops are generated from, as opposed to managing 30 individual desktops.

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    dhicks (7th July 2010)

  10. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I'm I reading that right? 7k for MS licensing?
    No - "about 10,000" also covers 30 client devices (very roughly: 100 for a screen, 150 for a thin client device, 30 for CALs) - 8,400.

    what are the differences between RDP 5.2 and RDP 7? Is there anything their that you really need?
    Multimedia support, sound in particular. I'm not actually sure if the 2-second delay between video and sound arriving at the client is due to our Windows Server 2003 TS machine (which runs SIMS just fine, obviously) or the clients only supporting RDP 5.2. The Dell T105 server I currently have spare doesn't want to install Windows Server 2008 R2, but it's the last day of term today so I can try a different server tomorrow.

    --
    David Hicks

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    Microsoft have done a lot of work on the "server side" for W2008 regarding sound, so W2008 works fine (and vastly better than W2003) for all versions of RDP client.

    When you get your W2008 server up you will find audio works fine, and much better with the same clients compared to when they were connected to W2003.
    (I would guess your existing Thin-Stations will be fine regards audio when connected to W2008 - audio does not put too much pressure on the client).

    Using the later versions of RDP client will benefit video (localised codecs etc) - but not sound specifically. Don't forget Microsoft only localises certain codec's, most noticeably NOT flash, due to squabbles with Abode - so this does not benefit multi-media for most websites, but that's a posting for another day....

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