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Recommended Suppliers Thread, RM - Discuss in Purchasing and Trading; As usual ... playing Devil's Advocate here ... There are bonuses for RM (or other managed solutions) rather than a ...
  1. #31

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    As usual ... playing Devil's Advocate here ...

    There are bonuses for RM (or other managed solutions) rather than a vanilla 2K3 network ...

    For schools that have minimal technical support or schools where the support team are concentrated on other areas CC3 can save time (and that also means money) on a number of tasks that can be done by other means.

    The packaging of applications has been made easy in CC3 and you pay for this ... in a vanilla network you pay for this too, but as a seperate cost with things like Wise or the full verion of WinINSTALL.

    Print control is an extra in a vanilla system (PCounter and Print manager Plus seem to be the most common) and again ... at a cost.

    The benefits of vanilla systems over CC3 ...

    There are so many tools and places for help it is unbelievable (actually, this can sometimes be a bac thing ... but generally it is good)

    There is at least one less level of obfustication when having to fix a problem.

    You can build the tools you need, and know exactly what they do.

    I keep saying that whatever works in a school ... then let it work. The only time I will draw a line is when it is not cos effective or if it works for one person and disadvantages everyone else.

    We also have to remember that until recently the ICT Co-ordinator may have been the person running the show with the system in the school and that meant they were on seriously limited time ... CC3 is a perfect response to this ... and as more teachers do just that, teach ... we will find a greater need for support staff in school to take up the slack, sometimes it is not always possible to allow them the time to build a system that works exactly as required and an out of the box solution can be the best thing.

    Personally, if it meant that the support team has more time to get on with other things then CC3 would be an option for me ... that £60000 may seem alot, but that is the cost of a techie (with on costs) for nearly 3 years. In some cases it might be worth it but in others maybe not.

  2. #32
    Norphy's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    We recently rebuilt our entire domain and network infrastructure from scratch. It took about six months of planning and design and we implemented it all during the summer holidays. Yes, I had other things to do during the term time but I managed to find the time.

    You say that reinventing the wheel is a waste of time. I admit I haven't looked that much into CC3 but there doesn't seem to be an awful lot in there which can't be acheived using standard Active Directory or Netware. Seems to me that RM is reinventing the wheel....

    /edit

    In case it's not obvious, this post was aimed at u8dmtm's previous post

  3. #33
    u8dmtm's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    I'm not saying CC3 is better than vanilla. I know it certainly isn't - but only if you have the time.

  4. #34
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Just seen this

    http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products...f=1624.2.3.299


    What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.

  5. #35

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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.

    As for the general debate, I think GrumbleDook put it best, make your choice, go with it and as long as it makes sense all will be well in the world. We went this way because for the benefit of the school we could not see us updating ourselves through training, planning it all, and supporting the current system in the time frame and to within the cost of getting the RM solution. Once it was installed we had a framework to go with, a base secure system that we have added and tweaked and ended up with a system that works for the school and is stable. Both my boss and I were very tempted to go vanilla purely from the we get to fiddle and learn stuff point of view but for the school we thought it was best.

    I think the long term goal is to possibly start to drift away now that we have got an up-to-date system and can have the time to update our skills as and when, now AD is in and I doubt is going to change in a massive way anytime soon.

  6. #36

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey
    Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.

    As for the general debate, I think GrumbleDook put it best, make your choice, go with it and as long as it makes sense all will be well in the world. We went this way because for the benefit of the school we could not see us updating ourselves through training, planning it all, and supporting the current system in the time frame and to within the cost of getting the RM solution. Once it was installed we had a framework to go with, a base secure system that we have added and tweaked and ended up with a system that works for the school and is stable. Both my boss and I were very tempted to go vanilla purely from the we get to fiddle and learn stuff point of view but for the school we thought it was best.

    I think the long term goal is to possibly start to drift away now that we have got an up-to-date system and can have the time to update our skills as and when, now AD is in and I doubt is going to change in a massive way anytime soon.
    I give me contacts a quick email and see if can get it will write something up..

    Russ

  7. #37
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Can't speak for the vanilla network, but the speed sounds about right for a CC3 one.

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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    Just seen this

    http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products...f=1624.2.3.299


    What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.
    I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL

  9. #39

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mintsoft
    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    Just seen this

    http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products...f=1624.2.3.299


    What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.
    I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL
    have you applied various cc3 updates will try and find list ones you need...

    russ

  10. #40

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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintsoft
    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers
    Just seen this

    http://www.rm.com/Secondary/Products...f=1624.2.3.299


    What exactly did RM do to this Vanilla 2000 network to make it 9 minutes from power to desktop? I think they got the 2 figures the wrong way around, as when the head of IT went to a conference to do with GNVQ IT the other head of IT's were saying that their connect 3 networks took an age to boot, between 5-10 minutes from power button being pressed and were shocked when my head of IT told them that our vanilla network took 55 seconds.
    I have to say, there isnt a single RM machine in this entire college that boots & logs on in under 4 minutes. Even the 'ever so good' RM One 3ghz 64bit machines. Even my old Duron 800 at home boots and logs on faster. We broadcast a boot message in the morning so that we're not waiting around for the damn things to boot in the morning. Thank god for WOL
    have you applied various cc3 updates will try and find list ones you need...

    russ
    We're upto date with every update that RM have thrown out at us but there's been no change (positive or negative) in speed with any of the updates. Doesn't seem like there is much that we can actually do.

    Rob

  11. #41

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    hmm interesting have you got a support callopen over this i suggest you do that...

    do us afavour

    also have you got two machines the same turn off Station Access Control on one of workstations close them down

    start w/s with out Station Access Control Optimisation on and record time until hard drive light stops flashing

    then do same again with one with it on what is time difference...

    russ

  12. #42

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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    hmm interesting have you got a support callopen over this i suggest you do that...

    do us afavour

    also have you got two machines the same turn off Station Access Control on one of workstations close them down

    start w/s with out Station Access Control Optimisation on and record time until hard drive light stops flashing

    then do same again with one with it on what is time difference...

    russ
    Yeah i can do that tonight when the students have smegged off, IF i get time. I dont think we have a call open over it at the moment as we're having more pressing "rebuilding" problems atm.

  13. #43
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    There is something seriously wrong if you can't get a 3GHz RM One to boot and login in 4 minutes on CC3, we have similar stations which can do so in well under 2 minutes:

    - is this true even for a clean station and clean profile?
    - what is your infrastructure like?
    - how heavily loaded are your DCs?

  14. #44

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey
    Boot and logon speed was a problem a long while back, but now they pretty fast. As far as I can remember they way it was explained to me was the test was done between vanilla and CC3 systems setup to create the same security on both using GPO's and AD only. MAybe Edugeek could phone them and ask for the test documentation so a piece could be done on it? Would be interesting.
    got documents from rm will do bit of reading overweekend and write something up

    Russ

  15. #45

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    Re: RM - Discuss

    Quote Originally Posted by u8dmtm
    There is something seriously wrong if you can't get a 3GHz RM One to boot and login in 4 minutes on CC3, we have similar stations which can do so in well under 2 minutes:

    - is this true even for a clean station and clean profile?
    - what is your infrastructure like?
    - how heavily loaded are your DCs?
    It's better for a clean profile I do admit. The 4 minutes is for my account, takes about 15 seconds to login on my 2000 laptop (without a profile cache) and several minutes on an RM station. Even though my profile does seem to be rather large compared to most, it still illustrates the difference in speed between RM and the laptop.

    Our infrastructure is goddamn awful because sadly I don't have control over it. The 2 servers are nowhere near balanced and they're terribly underpowered. But alas! its out of my hands ;_;
    -Rob

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