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IT News Thread, Put young children on DNA list, urge police in Other News; Originally Posted by torledo Oh, and i already have something that i can show when i need to withdraw more ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Oh, and i already have something that i can show when i need to withdraw more money than the ATM can spew out.....it's called a passport. Or in the case of many a photocard driving license.

    And it's never been known for a person genuinely over the age of 18 to buy booze for 14 year olds has it ?
    I don't have a passport and the amount of things that ask for one is crazy. Lots of people don't have a driving licence. A national ID card gives 1 common form of ID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Thin end of a wedge.
    OK - for that matter - what info is stored on your photocard driving licence? You think you know whats on it but you don't know for sure. Any info could be put on it or in your passport for that matter by stealth.

    Thin end of a wedge is just tabloid reactionary nonsense.

  3. #33
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    I don't have a passport and the amount of things that ask for one is crazy. Lots of people don't have a driving licence. A national ID card gives 1 common form of ID.
    Exactly. The passport is the evidence required for various things. So if you needed one you'd get one....you're entitled to a passport, you should have even if you keep at the bottom of a drawer collecting and never intend to go on holiday....

    You're trying to tell me that you're waiting for the cure all that is the National ID card to come and make you're daily life worth living. C'mon.

    I don't happen to have a photocard driving license, i've got a paper one and use it fine wherever i need to display it. I didn't actually approve of photocard driving license or fingerprints on passports....but if we've already got photo id why on earth do we need another piece of plastic and the billions it costs. If you're such a big fan of the fuzz wouldn't you prefer for some of those billions to go in their direction so that they can prevent you from being accosted. Or give you more speeding fines. Whatever rocks you're boat.
    Last edited by torledo; 5th April 2008 at 07:06 PM.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    I take the opposite view - I think the amount of "abuse" will be small compared to the crimes it will help solve. I think the majority of police services are good and honest and do the job well.
    From personal experience, I hold the opposite view. The overwhelming amount of evidence of systematic abuse by the police is a key indicator that new systems will be abused too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    From personal experience, I hold the opposite view. The overwhelming amount of evidence of systematic abuse by the police is a key indicator that new systems will be abused too.
    That's rather the point - "the overwhelming evidence" doesn't exist. There are a minor amount of issues that are over reported which take no account of the many thousands of hours and cases of solid police work that is done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Exactly. The passport is the evidence required for various things. So if you needed one you'd get one....you're entitled to a passport, you should have even if you keep at the bottom of a drawer collecting and never intend to go on holiday....

    You're trying to tell me that you're waiting for the cure all that is the National ID card to come and make you're daily life worth living. C'mon.
    So I have to have a passport to function now? Why should I - I don't need or want one.

    And no I don't thin it's a cure all but I don't think it causes this massive loss of freedom that everyone bangs on about.

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    The thing is ID card can prove who a person is a lot quicker because everyone will have one. How many people do you know who carry round a passport? Driving licences can be forged pretty easy from all accounts. If ID card come into effect they should be used to confirm your ID when using Chip & Pin, it will only take a few sounds but can stop someone using your card and steal your hard earned money from your account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN-Greatermanchester View Post
    The thing is ID card can prove who a person is a lot quicker because everyone will have one. How many people do you know who carry round a passport? Driving licences can be forged pretty easy from all accounts. If ID card come into effect they should be used to confirm your ID when using Chip & Pin, it will only take a few sounds but can stop someone using your card and steal your hard earned money from your account.
    Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

    Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

    Oh, and i've never had anything stolen from my bank accoount in more than 20 years. Pre or post chip and pin. It's not something i have sleepless nights about.
    Last edited by torledo; 5th April 2008 at 08:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

    Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

    If your card got stolen someone could possibly use this. If we had a national recognised system this could be reduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN-Greatermanchester View Post
    If your card got stolen someone could possibly use this. If we had a national recognised system this could be reduced.
    Judging by the direction thhis thread iss going i'm not going to convince you otherwise, am i ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

    Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

    Oh, and i've never had anything stolen from my bank accoount in more than 20 years. Pre or post chip and pin. It's not something i have sleepless nights about.

    But how do I open a bank account - I don't have a passport or a photocard driving licence for the sake of argument. A national system that everyone is part of makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    Judging by the direction thhis thread iss going i'm not going to convince you otherwise, am i ?
    nor vice versa - but debate is good and quite enjoyable ;-)

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    Its a no win situation really we both have good and valid points

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN-Greatermanchester View Post
    although you maybe law abiding how can others tell that you are?
    Why do they need too? If I have done something that I need to be pulled up for, fine, but what worries me is being stopped and asked for ID for NO reason at all.
    And as for DNA records - the police do not destroy DNA in quite a lot of cases that have been well documented.

    ID cards may not have been used in this country before but they are used in many other countries and there is no evidence from these countries that they have reduced crime, terrorism or anything else in any shape or form (the US doesn't have them - with all their paranoia, doesn't that tell you something?)
    This is the sort of thing that worries me (and this wasn't from an anti - ID website, either):

    "ID cards are established for a variety of reasons. Race, politics and religion were often at the heart of ID systems. The threat of insurgents or political extremists, and the exercise of religious discrimination have been all too common as motivation for the establishment of ID systems which would force enemies of the State into registration, or make them vulnerable in the open without proper documents. In Pakistan, the cards are used to enforce a quota system, In China, they are used as a tool of social engineering.

    In the United Kingdom, current proposals for a national ID card are fuelled by the need to develop a document which is acceptable to other European countries, as well as a belief that the scheme might help fight crime. In Australia, the purpose of the proposed card was to fight tax evasion, and, in New Zealand, to establish Social Welfare entitlement. The Dutch card has the dual purpose of helping to improve government administrative efficiency, while playing a key role in dismantling border controls.Of the 25 countries that have been most adversely affected by terrorism since 1986, eighty per cent have national identity cards, one third of which incorporate biometrics. This research was unable to uncover any instance where the presence of an identity card system in those countries was seen as a significant deterrent to terrorist activity.

    At the heart of such plans is a parallel increase in police powers. Even in democratic nations, police retain the right to demand ID on pain of detention."


    Once we have an ID card system, however well meaning the reasons in the first place, we have something that can be abused by the government - or future governments

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    Once we have an ID card system, however well meaning the reasons in the first place, we have something that can be abused by the government - or future governments
    This is where I have an issue - ID card or not oppresive reigemes flourish. I don't think there is a relationship. If a government wants to impose itself it will do it regardless of card carrying as China, Zimbabwe and Iraq to name but a few show.

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