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IT News Thread, Put young children on DNA list, urge police in Other News; Originally Posted by localzuk But why give them another tool to abuse? Because I believe that it will do more ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    But why give them another tool to abuse?
    Because I believe that it will do more good than harm. I think the police do an exceptional and outstanding job in this country on the whole and if they need my DNA to make that job a little easier then I don't mind.

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    Well I do!
    As a perfectly law abiding citizen of this country I have every right to walk past a policeman with him/her having absolutely no idea of who I am.
    DNA testing is all very well but I believe that those who have reason to would find some way to get around it (hacking or whatever), and like ID cards there is NO evidence to show that crime rates would fall.
    As for targeting children - sounds like Minority Report to me - this would be presuming that people are 'bad' for ever.
    Many many people do silly things when they are young and grow up to be law abiding citizens.
    This is just governments making it look as if they are doing something when they need to tackle the actual crimes and the reasons for them happening

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    I also have to agree with the ID cards situation. If they do introduce it i bet people who work in schools will be one of the first to have them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Well I do!
    As a perfectly law abiding citizen of this country I have every right to walk past a policeman with him/her having absolutely no idea of who I am.
    And how would carrying an ID card or having a DNA database give them an idea of who you are. You'd still have the above situation. If they have grounds to stop you they can still make you prove your ID now.

    Law abiding people will still be able to carry on as normal.

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    although you maybe law abiding how can others tell that you are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Well I do!
    As for targeting children - sounds like Minority Report to me - this would be presuming that people are 'bad' for ever.
    Many many people do silly things when they are young and grow up to be law abiding citizens.
    This is just governments making it look as if they are doing something when they need to tackle the actual crimes and the reasons for them happening
    And being on a dna database makes no difference to this. All the dna database does is allow tracking down of criminals easier. If a young person does something wrong now and is convicted it expires - it would be no different if they were on a dna database.

  7. #22

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    And how would carrying an ID card or having a DNA database give them an idea of who you are. You'd still have the above situation. If they have grounds to stop you they can still make you prove your ID now.

    Law abiding people will still be able to carry on as normal.
    What about those that are law abiding but the police have a grudge against? Or ones that the government doesn't like but aren't breaking the law?

    This does happen, and has happened to me.

    An example of country-wide hassle against law abiding citizens is animal rights. Sure, there are some who break laws, but those who don't still get hassle due to their beliefs. People who hold a stall and hand out information are arrested for fake reasons, people who hold a protest outside a shop get abused by the police or arrested. Having ways of tracking people easier will simply make the abuse easier.

    Personally, I'd like to see the police do actual policework rather than relying on DNA for things - as it can and does get mixed up.

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    But all this happens now! DNA won't suddenly increase that.

    It's just another scientific tool - would you not want them using fingerprints, CCTV images, other chemical testing eg. firearms residue? All of these can and have been mixed up in the past!

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    But all this happens now! DNA won't suddenly increase that.

    It's just another scientific tool - would you not want them using fingerprints, CCTV images, other chemical testing eg. firearms residue? All of these can and have been mixed up in the past!
    Yes, and I don't like CCTV either. Why give more ammo to them to abuse?? That's the point. The amount of abuse is not worth the slight increase in crimes being solved.

    Otherwise, why not have us all tagged and tracked every day? That'd lower crime...

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Yes, and I don't like CCTV either. Why give more ammo to them to abuse?? That's the point. The amount of abuse is not worth the slight increase in crimes being solved.

    Otherwise, why not have us all tagged and tracked every day? That'd lower crime...
    I take the opposite view - I think the amount of "abuse" will be small compared to the crimes it will help solve. I think the majority of police services are good and honest and do the job well.

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    Another point with ID cards it is a common ID everyone will have. When you withdraw money from the bank they will know exactly who you are, this can prevent crime. When buying alcohol you know that the buyer is not underage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post

    As for ID cards - so what if you had to carry one - makes no difference except to criminals.

    The "personal freedoms" I'd like to see are things like being able to walk down the street unaccosted, the right to park my car without it getting nicked/vandalised etc, the right to not get burgled - anything the police can do to help with this would be good - if having a dna database helps them catch criminals quicker so be it. I'm with Zak on this - it's only a problem if you have something to hide!
    ID cards do blimming well matter because i'm going to have to pay out of my pocket 35.., 40 ...,50... quid whatever the final figure comes down. It also means all sorts of additional information can and will be added at later stages, and who knows how many agencies will eventually have access to that information.

    Putting aside the personal freedom issues what are the proven benefits of ID cards. Has it proven to combat terrorism ? No. It's costly, it's unneeded and it's quite sinister the way it's being phased in. By the end of the year airport workers and foreign nationals outside the EU will have to carry one. If that's not stigmatising non-EU nationals and downright unfair on these groups then what is ?

    And guess what...ID cards and the dna database will have little or no impact on the personal freedoms you want protected that you've listed. Those things you talk about can and will continue to happen irrespective of the introduction of these huge databases and bits of plastic.

    As witch has already said it's nice to be able to walk down the street and for an official of some sort or copper NOT to know who you are. With the prevalence of cctv, the moves toward biometrics and new wireless technologies such as RFID it's going to be more difficult in the future not to become a tagged and bagged human parcel where all sorts of people know who you are or where you're going 24/7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    ID cards do blimming well matter because i'm going to have to pay out of my pocket 35.., 40 ...,50... quid whatever the final figure comes down. It also means all sorts of additional information can and will be added at later stages, and who knows how many agencies will eventually have access to that information.

    Putting aside the personal freedom issues what are the proven benefits of ID cards. Has it proven to combat terrorism ? No. It's costly, it's unneeded and it's quite sinister the way it's being phased in. By the end of the year airport workers and foreign nationals outside the EU will have to carry one. If that's not stigmatising non-EU nationals and downright unfair on these groups then what is ?

    And guess what...ID cards and the dna database will have little or no impact on the personal freedoms you want protected that you've listed. Those things you talk about can and will continue to happen irrespective of the introduction of these huge databases and bits of plastic.

    As witch has already said it's nice to be able to walk down the street and for an official of some sort or copper NOT to know who you are. With the prevalence of cctv, the moves toward biometrics and new wireless technologies such as RFID it's going to be more difficult in the future not to become a tagged and bagged human parcel where all sorts of people know who you are or where you're going 24/7.
    You can't possibly say it won't have an impact 'cos we haven't had them to find out.

    As I said previously having them doesn't make a difference to you walking down the street. I don't think having them will equip the police with psychic powers so they'll be none the wiser!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FN-Greatermanchester View Post
    Another point with ID cards it is a common ID everyone will have. When you withdraw money from the bank they will know exactly who you are, this can prevent crime. When buying alcohol you know that the buyer is not underage.
    I'll leave aside the fact that ID cards will have initially absolutely nothing to do with withdrawing money from an ATM. Oh, and i already have something that i can show when i need to withdraw more money than the ATM can spew out.....it's called a passport. Or in the case of many a photocard driving license.

    And it's never been known for a person genuinely over the age of 18 to buy booze for 14 year olds has it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    You can't possibly say it won't have an impact 'cos we haven't had them to find out.

    As I said previously having them doesn't make a difference to you walking down the street. I don't think having them will equip the police with psychic powers so they'll be none the wiser!
    Thin end of a wedge.



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