+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 33
IT News Thread, [Guardian] Schools ask parents to stump upfor iPads in Other News; Originally Posted by seawolf I know people like to have some quantitative measure to justify success, but grades aren't the ...
  1. #16

    sparkeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    6,259
    Thank Post
    1,138
    Thanked 1,463 Times in 980 Posts
    Blog Entries
    22
    Rep Power
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    I know people like to have some quantitative measure to justify success, but grades aren't the best measure.
    Well, we operate in a system where grades are the only measure. In a time of austerity we have to justify money spent against our core objective - grades.
    Might not like it but there it is.

  2. #17

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Well, we operate in a system where grades are the only measure. In a time of austerity we have to justify money spent against our core objective - grades.
    Might not like it but there it is.
    Yes, might as well just perpetuate bad decisions. No use in resisting it for the students sake I suppose.

  3. #18

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    17,095
    Thank Post
    511
    Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,785 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    803
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Yes, might as well just perpetuate bad decisions. No use in resisting it for the students sake I suppose.
    Ok, what would you use to judge whether spending half a million quid on something new is a good or bad thing?

    With the approach I'm suggesting - making sure they're actually a good thing, based on measurable outcomes - I get to see that they won't harm the education of our students. What do your suggest then?

  4. #19

    sparkeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    6,259
    Thank Post
    1,138
    Thanked 1,463 Times in 980 Posts
    Blog Entries
    22
    Rep Power
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Yes, might as well just perpetuate bad decisions. No use in resisting it for the students sake I suppose.
    Don't think I advocated perpetuating bad decisions.
    What I am saying is that yes I think there should be some kind of measurable outcome for investing thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of pounds. There is a huge burden on schools to improve grades so this is a natural measurable to choose. Whilst I agree that schools are more than just about grades, they are the bottom line. A school may turn out lovely well rounded members of society but if they have a string of rubbish grades then they have been failed.

    So what factors would you choose to think about when spending this kind of money?

  5. #20

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ok, what would you use to judge whether spending half a million quid on something new is a good or bad thing?

    With the approach I'm suggesting - making sure they're actually a good thing, based on measurable outcomes - I get to see that they won't harm the education of our students. What do your suggest then?
    How about looking at the students overall wellbeing, their engagement and desire to learn? Creating critical and creative thinkers with a real lifelong love of learning should be the real goal. Too many students just do only what is necessary and as soon as they can get out of school are happily resigned to never attend any sort of class or pick up a book for the purpose of learning anything ever again. They hated school and have no desire to approach anything that looks like school or learning ever again.

    Better grades too often don't demonstrate better engagement or desire for learning, but can just be a byproduct of more pressure being out on teachers and students, incentives for performance being introduced (monetary or otherwise), a lowering of standards, or simply cheating by the students or the school itself to increase funding.

  6. #21

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,962
    Thank Post
    159
    Thanked 152 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    I just think the whole situation of parents having to pay for devices is wrong. You don't have to pay for textbooks so why an iPad? If they want to provide one for each child the school should fund it themselves.

    Personally, although I see a value of iPads in education, I believe in them being school owned devices, similar to a set of laptops. I can see some advantages of personal ownership but I don't think they are worth the vast cost and misuse potential involved. For older pupils and sixth formers it makes more sense, but on the basis of 'if you have one you can bring it in' with school owned devices for loan for those who don't, not 'you must buy an ipad'

  7. #22

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by sidewinder View Post
    I just think the whole situation of parents having to pay for devices is wrong. You don't have to pay for textbooks so why an iPad? If they want to provide one for each child the school should fund it themselves.

    Personally, although I see a value of iPads in education, I believe in them being school owned devices, similar to a set of laptops. I can see some advantages of personal ownership but I don't think they are worth the vast cost and misuse potential involved. For older pupils and sixth formers it makes more sense, but on the basis of 'if you have one you can bring it in' with school owned devices for loan for those who don't, not 'you must buy an ipad'
    I suppose I have a different perspective on this. We DO have to pay for textbooks here. It's still the same in the states I believe. Many employers are going BYOD and not supplying computers or phones to staff, that will become more the norm as time goes on. The problem with the 'bring anything' idea in schools though is that there are many devices that just aren't practical or workable in a school environment, and the more diverse the devices the more capable the IT systems, IT staff, and teachers need to be to cope with it. That increases costs for systems, staff, and training. And it's not as if the devices required by schools can ONLY be used for schoolwork. Whereas, textbooks can only be used for school, or as a very expensive paperweight.

  8. #23

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,962
    Thank Post
    159
    Thanked 152 Times in 116 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    I suppose I have a different perspective on this. We DO have to pay for textbooks here. It's still the same in the states I believe. Many employers are going BYOD and not supplying computers or phones to staff, that will become more the norm as time goes on. The problem with the 'bring anything' idea in schools though is that there are many devices that just aren't practical or workable in a school environment, and the more diverse the devices the more capable the IT systems, IT staff, and teachers need to be to cope with it. That increases costs for systems, staff, and training. And it's not as if the devices required by schools can ONLY be used for schoolwork. Whereas, textbooks can only be used for school, or as a very expensive paperweight.
    All fair points

    I was thinking it would make sense for college and uni students in this country as they do have to buy textbooks, and being able to get them digitally on a device which can also do a lot of other things is a no brainer

  9. #24


    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,487
    Thank Post
    198
    Thanked 629 Times in 481 Posts
    Rep Power
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    How about looking at the students overall wellbeing, their engagement and desire to learn? Creating critical and creative thinkers with a real lifelong love of learning should be the real goal.
    So how do you measure "engagement", "desire to learn" or "critical and creative thinking"? What if a school measured high on "engagement" and "desire to learn" but all the students flunked their GCSE - would that be a success or a failure?

    Too many students just do only what is necessary and as soon as they can get out of school are happily resigned to never attend any sort of class or pick up a book for the purpose of learning anything ever again. They hated school and have no desire to approach anything that looks like school or learning ever again.
    You say that based on what data? In the UK we have the highest ever number of students going into higher education. If that doesn't reflect a desire to learn - what does?

    Better grades too often don't demonstrate better engagement or desire for learning, but can just be a byproduct of more pressure being out on teachers and students, incentives for performance being introduced (monetary or otherwise), a lowering of standards, or simply cheating by the students or the school itself to increase funding.
    If you want to say they are "lowering standards" when infact the metrics in play show standards are improving, then you need some hard data. Otherwise it's just hot air.

  10. #25

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    17,095
    Thank Post
    511
    Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,785 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    803
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    How about looking at the students overall wellbeing, their engagement and desire to learn? Creating critical and creative thinkers with a real lifelong love of learning should be the real goal. Too many students just do only what is necessary and as soon as they can get out of school are happily resigned to never attend any sort of class or pick up a book for the purpose of learning anything ever again. They hated school and have no desire to approach anything that looks like school or learning ever again.

    Better grades too often don't demonstrate better engagement or desire for learning, but can just be a byproduct of more pressure being out on teachers and students, incentives for performance being introduced (monetary or otherwise), a lowering of standards, or simply cheating by the students or the school itself to increase funding.
    You seem to be assuming that by looking at measurable things, those aspects are ignored? Creativity can be graded. Independent learning can be graded. The issue is this - pupils are taught what they need to survive in life. Yes, creativity and love of learning are massively important, but if we don't focus on grades then we end up with another generation of kids who spell everything without any vowels, or think that Moscow is in Spain...

    We can only justify expenditure with proof that it'll improve the education of our children. We can't justify it by saying "they might like it as it might make them more creative".

    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    I suppose I have a different perspective on this. We DO have to pay for textbooks here. It's still the same in the states I believe. Many employers are going BYOD and not supplying computers or phones to staff, that will become more the norm as time goes on. The problem with the 'bring anything' idea in schools though is that there are many devices that just aren't practical or workable in a school environment, and the more diverse the devices the more capable the IT systems, IT staff, and teachers need to be to cope with it. That increases costs for systems, staff, and training. And it's not as if the devices required by schools can ONLY be used for schoolwork. Whereas, textbooks can only be used for school, or as a very expensive paperweight.
    I know of a good number of employers who have tried BYOD, seen that it is a complete disaster (and cost them more than just buying stuff themselves), and scrapped it. There is always an opposite to every reaction.

    I simply cannot see the justification for 1:1 devices yet - they simply don't seem to add to the education of our kids any more than a half dozen more teachers would.

  11. #26

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    So how do you measure "engagement", "desire to learn" or "critical and creative thinking"? What if a school measured high on "engagement" and "desire to learn" but all the students flunked their GCSE - would that be a success or a failure?
    Good question. Tell me how you would measure the performance of a nurse, cop, or firefighter? Low rate of patient deaths, number of arrests, number of fires put out? Or is it something more complex than that? Good judgements must be made using both the qualitative and quantitative. When people try to reduce everything to a simple statistic or quantitative measure they lose all ability to make sound judgements. Life is far more complicated than that. Good teachers and parents will know when students are achieving these things based on all of the time they spend with them.

    You say that based on what data? In the UK we have the highest ever number of students going into higher education. If that doesn't reflect a desire to learn - what does?
    Correlation does not imply causation. Have you ever considered that perhaps a University degree has just become the new "High School Diploma" or in other words, the job market has become so competitive that students have no choice, but to continue on to University. Not because they want to, but because they have to in order to get a decent job. And it's putting a lot of young people in debt.

    http://m.slashdot.org/story/182395

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/bu...anted=all&_r=0

    If you want to say they are "lowering standards" when infact the metrics in play show standards are improving, then you need some hard data. Otherwise it's just hot air.
    The UK education system must be doing great then. Congratulations on your success. I can only speak from my own experiences, observations, and knowledge of the US and Australian education systems.

  12. #27

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You seem to be assuming that by looking at measurable things, those aspects are ignored? Creativity can be graded. Independent learning can be graded. The issue is this - pupils are taught what they need to survive in life. Yes, creativity and love of learning are massively important, but if we don't focus on grades then we end up with another generation of kids who spell everything without any vowels, or think that Moscow is in Spain...

    We can only justify expenditure with proof that it'll improve the education of our children. We can't justify it by saying "they might like it as it might make them more creative".



    I know of a good number of employers who have tried BYOD, seen that it is a complete disaster (and cost them more than just buying stuff themselves), and scrapped it. There is always an opposite to every reaction.

    I simply cannot see the justification for 1:1 devices yet - they simply don't seem to add to the education of our kids any more than a half dozen more teachers would.
    Moscow isn't in Spain? Well I'll be a...

  13. #28

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You seem to be assuming that by looking at measurable things, those aspects are ignored? Creativity can be graded. Independent learning can be graded. The issue is this - pupils are taught what they need to survive in life. Yes, creativity and love of learning are massively important, but if we don't focus on grades then we end up with another generation of kids who spell everything without any vowels, or think that Moscow is in Spain...

    We can only justify expenditure with proof that it'll improve the education of our children. We can't justify it by saying "they might like it as it might make them more creative".



    I know of a good number of employers who have tried BYOD, seen that it is a complete disaster (and cost them more than just buying stuff themselves), and scrapped it. There is always an opposite to every reaction.

    I simply cannot see the justification for 1:1 devices yet - they simply don't seem to add to the education of our kids any more than a half dozen more teachers would.
    But seriously, if you can only justify expenditure with proof then there are only two things money in education should be spent on - more and better teachers, and the building and maintenance of the school's basic infrastructure. I've seen no definitive proof that computers improve any aspect of learning, other than computer skills. Therefore, the only use computers should have at a school is in a computer class. The students have to hand write the answers to their exams anyway...

  14. #29


    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,487
    Thank Post
    198
    Thanked 629 Times in 481 Posts
    Rep Power
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Good question. Tell me how you would measure the performance of a nurse, cop, or firefighter? Low rate of patient deaths, number of arrests, number of fires put out? Or is it something more complex than that? Good judgements must be made using both the qualitative and quantitative. When people try to reduce everything to a simple statistic or quantitative measure they lose all ability to make sound judgements. Life is far more complicated than that. Good teachers and parents will know when students are achieving these things based on all of the time they spend with them.
    We are not talking about nurses or fire-fighters and there is plenty of evidence in the past and present that teachers and parents do not know what good teaching and learning looks like. If you can make a "good judgement" then you must have information on which you make that judgement. The question is what is that and how do you measure it. Just saying "it's more complex that that in real life is a cop out". Objective measures that quantify to a standard are essential for a rational, objective approach to improvement in any system. If you don't measure - how do you even know a policy is having an effect - let alone a desirable one?

    Correlation does not imply causation. Have you ever considered that perhaps a University degree has just become the new "High School Diploma" or in other words, the job market has become so competitive that students have no choice, but to continue on to University. Not because they want to, but because they have to in order to get a decent job. And it's putting a lot of young people in debt.
    The fact is you said students leave school so fed up with learning that they want nothing more to do with it. Yet the fact that we have the largest number of students ever going on to university at least goes some way to quantifying that - whatever the motivations of the students. Unable to support your assertions with real data you seem to be resorting to hand waving and word salad. The "oh but it's more complex than simple numbers" reminds me of one of my favourite Simpson's quotes "Lisa, your tears say more than real evidence ever could".
    The UK education system must be doing great then. Congratulations on your success. I can only speak from my own experiences, observations, and knowledge of the US and Australian education systems.
    Experiences, observation and 'knowledge' sure. But seemingly not very much hard data.

    I'd do agree with some of what you say. We don't (for instance) teach critical thinking skills. That could be rectified by teaching Philosophy as a subject (as they do in France). But you would still be able to measure the effectiveness of that teaching by looking at results - particularly progress (because not all students start at the same level), but in the end outcomes such as CGSE, A-Level attainment etc, show how a school levels over many years of students life at a school. We don't really instil a desire to lifelong learning - but a lot of that comes down to being a skills factory for employers who demand skills that are very short term currency rather than embedding concepts that allow people to learn the appropriate skills the employers will be using at the time.

  15. #30

    seawolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    725
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 218 Times in 171 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    We are not talking about nurses or fire-fighters and there is plenty of evidence in the past and present that teachers and parents do not know what good teaching and learning looks like. If you can make a "good judgement" then you must have information on which you make that judgement. The question is what is that and how do you measure it. Just saying "it's more complex that that in real life is a cop out". Objective measures that quantify to a standard are essential for a rational, objective approach to improvement in any system. If you don't measure - how do you even know a policy is having an effect - let alone a desirable one?

    The fact is you said students leave school so fed up with learning that they want nothing more to do with it. Yet the fact that we have the largest number of students ever going on to university at least goes some way to quantifying that - whatever the motivations of the students. Unable to support your assertions with real data you seem to be resorting to hand waving and word salad. The "oh but it's more complex than simple numbers" reminds me of one of my favourite Simpson's quotes "Lisa, your tears say more than real evidence ever could".


    Experiences, observation and 'knowledge' sure. But seemingly not very much hard data.

    I'd do agree with some of what you say. We don't (for instance) teach critical thinking skills. That could be rectified by teaching Philosophy as a subject (as they do in France). But you would still be able to measure the effectiveness of that teaching by looking at results - particularly progress (because not all students start at the same level), but in the end outcomes such as CGSE, A-Level attainment etc, show how a school levels over many years of students life at a school. We don't really instil a desire to lifelong learning - but a lot of that comes down to being a skills factory for employers who demand skills that are very short term currency rather than embedding concepts that allow people to learn the appropriate skills the employers will be using at the time.
    As you were then. You obviously have it all figured out. I'll leave you to it and take my "word salad" with me. Cheers.

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. [iPad] How easy is it to manage multiple iPads?
    By Sam_Brown in forum Netbooks, PDA and Phones
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11th October 2013, 06:24 AM
  2. [iPad] Using Apple Configurator to lock down iPAD and only install Google Chrome
    By kennysarmy in forum Netbooks, PDA and Phones
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 6th December 2012, 01:59 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 26th March 2010, 07:59 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13th May 2008, 03:58 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •