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Network and Classroom Management Thread, CC4, still a no-go area? in Technical; Originally Posted by PiqueABoo Said it before somewhere, but I reckon the new versus upgrade claim is a bit of ...
  1. #16

    webman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    Said it before somewhere, but I reckon the new versus upgrade claim is a bit of a crock. They both end up running the same software, and most of that is independent of the old CC3 bits.
    We are moving from two (loved, well-maintained) 7-year-old servers running Windows 2000 CC3, to new boxes running Windows 2003 CC4 with SAN storage. A straight upgrade with so many variables leaves too many options for failure. Another benefit is that if CC4 does turn out to be less than expected, we've lost nothing. Our CC3 will still function as normal, and we can then shift to Plan B, C or D and go full Karoshi, or Citrix, or heaven-forbid - plain old Vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    Do RM not do RM Interlink anymore, like they did for RM Connect LM and Connect 2.x ?You use to get a J: Drive which was MyWork on the other network, and passwords were kept in sync.
    I don't know, but it sounded like a bad idea (and was, in most cases) in the days of 2.4 / CC3 co-existence, so it's not an option we would consider.

  2. #17
    nicholab's Avatar
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    The move form CC3 to CC4 should be seen as on the same scale as migrating to a vanilla network. It also has similar cost implications.

  3. #18

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    Work wise maybe but certainly not cost, if you have CC3 you alreday have all the miscrosft CALS and server liecnecing without having to stump up an extra £ for the CC4 licening for stations servers and what not which is far from cheap. You can also ditch all the RM service contracts which saves if you so wished.

  4. #19
    Butuz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    We are moving from two (loved, well-maintained) 7-year-old servers running Windows 2000 CC3, to new boxes running Windows 2003 CC4 with SAN storage. A straight upgrade with so many variables leaves too many options for failure. Another benefit is that if CC4 does turn out to be less than expected, we've lost nothing. Our CC3 will still function as normal, and we can then shift to Plan B, C or D and go full Karoshi, or Citrix, or heaven-forbid - plain old Vanilla.
    Agree - I did this with CC3 when upgrading from C2.4, had CC3 running for several months alongside in order to test and set up - then when ready copied all the user data and rebuilt all the workstations to CC3 and job done.

    I would do the same with CC4 too if thatv was the way I was going.

    Butuz

  5. Thanks to Butuz from:

    webman (19th March 2009)

  6. #20
    magicpatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butuz View Post
    Agree - I did this with CC3 when upgrading from C2.4, had CC3 running for several months alongside in order to test and set up - then when ready copied all the user data and rebuilt all the workstations to CC3 and job done.

    I would do the same with CC4 too if thatv was the way I was going.

    Butuz
    We've got our meeting with RM tomorrow, this is how I'm going to pitch it to them and the school, to run CC3 and CC4 side by side, if they want to go to CC4 and then aim towards the end of the school year to get CC4 up and running to be ready for September.
    At least that gives times to recreate packages and do test runs before rolling it out site wide and if the CC3 decides to stop working the CC4 server will at least be on site.

  7. #21

    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicpatch View Post
    We've got our meeting with RM tomorrow, this is how I'm going to pitch it to them and the school, to run CC3 and CC4 side by side, if they want to go to CC4 and then aim towards the end of the school year to get CC4 up and running to be ready for September.
    At least that gives times to recreate packages and do test runs before rolling it out site wide and if the CC3 decides to stop working the CC4 server will at least be on site.
    Seems the sensible way of doing it.

    This is how we went over from CC3 to the LEA. The LEA put in a server and took over the AD copies, usernames/passwords etc.

    We then worked on two machines and the server for 3/4 weeks making sure everything was how we wanted it in school. Once that was done we started planning for the changeover. Everythign was in place... MSIs, software was sorted and cleaned out, printers were organised and scripts written, other scripts were written.

    We then set upon a 3 week transition period where the CC3 servers were kept on but nobody could access them. Week 1 was rebuilding the network (we did that in three days) and get all machines onto the network with email/internet access - and with a standard set of software tools (plus any other software they needed).

    Week 2 was printers and making sure software was in the correct departments and mopping up any issues.

    Week 3 - was not needed.

    Gareth

  8. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by magicpatch View Post
    After reading a bunch of comments here about CC4, is this still best avoided? We have an RM CC3 network which is really starting to creek and grown now as the server is a little underpowered for the amount of machines we have on the network now!
    I would personally work on the theory that RM is a good no-go area

  9. #23
    magicpatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAckroyd View Post
    I would personally work on the theory that RM is a good no-go area
    I agree, but as I'm only on site for just over 2 hours a day and our LEA support is terrible the school might decide its better for them to go to CC4, although as I've said before I have no issues with CC3 and RM have told me they can still supply XP machines for another year or so anyway and even then CC3 supports Vista anyway ....

    Just the school server is showing its age and its filling up fast so the server does need replacing, the alternative is just get another CC3 server, at least that cuts all the licencing costs!

    We are giving RM the chance as we have their network now, although they won't get away with a light chat - it starts in 50mins, I'll update if they say anything that I need additional advice for.t

    The vanilla LEA one is the other alternative, but they use Ghost and everything and I manage one of them in another school and its not all that despite their talk.
    Would be easier just to do a plain startup from scratch but as I don't spend much time on the site it would be months and months before it was even ready so that's not an option.

  10. #24
    randle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallwood_6 View Post
    We had a CC4 upgrade from CC3 last July, probably one of the first to go head outside of field trials. After a summer of battling we have most of the problems now ironed out however CC4 still have a number of problems many of which i believe will still be present after SR1. The biggest one for me is the poor station startup and logon times from cold boot which is a particular problem on laptops and older stations and will definatly come as a shock for those comming from Vanilla Windows environments. There are also countless little buggy issues, the management console is slow and prone to crashing or throwing up random errors. The network recycle bin which many have purchased has been withdrawn and is still awaiting a fix, RM tutor which is a large part of the CC4 client costs is has only just been made usable the list goes on.
    I'm happy RM are on the right track now but they still have a long way to go to restore confidence in CC4 and certainly before i order anything from them anytime soon.
    Spot on

  11. Thanks to randle from:

    magicpatch (24th March 2009)

  12. #25
    magicpatch's Avatar
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    So really, I should hear them out, fire them questions about it being terribly resource heavy and buggy and then say thanks, nice(?) ideas, terrible implementation but we might go elsewhere

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    I have never understood why schools use RM systems and following this and other threads describing the trials and disasters that you have suffered I am at a complete loss to see why anyone uses them at all. Installing and setting up a new curriculum network is a fairly simple process (don't all shout at me at once, i have installed over 16 curriculum systems in the last 3 years) the last one was in the February half term 2009. I replaced a clapped out RM school share system with a new windows 2003 active directory server running ranger. the system consisted of a dell t3500 quad xeon terabyte server, 32 levono r400 laptops, 6 wireless N wifi access points, 5 24 port gigabyte network switches, followme network printing ( so easy to do just 2 lines of text in the login script and location variable set on the pc or laptop, no need for pages visual basic. if you want details please drop me a line) migrated all the pupil and staff data. all done in 5 days by myself and 1 colleague for a total cost of £23,000 which included the cost of all equipment and software licences and installation charges. job done and all workin perfectly for return to school on monday morning

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    Oops_my_bad (29th March 2009)

  15. #27

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    a new windows 2003 active directory server running ranger
    What? As in RM Ranger?

    terabyte server
    And backup?

  16. #28

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    the dell t3500 server comes with a 400 gb backup tape drive and was supplied with 5 backup tapes and cleaning tape. the backup programme used was the built in backup option in windows server 2003 and RANGER is supplied by SENTINEL PRODUCTS and can be viewed at Sentinel Products Designed for Education | Home it is NOT a RM product

  17. #29

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    Whatever, but last time I looked Sentinel Products was a subsidiary of RM and had been one for years.

  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliveRichardson View Post
    the dell t3500 server comes with a 400 gb backup tape drive and was supplied with 5 backup tapes and cleaning tape. the backup programme used was the built in backup option in windows server 2003 and RANGER is supplied by SENTINEL PRODUCTS and can be viewed at Sentinel Products Designed for Education | Home it is NOT a RM product
    If its a Ranger product its RM. RM have owned Ranger and Sentinel since Feb 2004 . RM acquires network software developer Sentinel Products

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