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Network and Classroom Management Thread, Moving from CC3 to something else? in Technical; > You can't do a simple rename of a PC with CC3 Yup, that's a true and good criticism....
  1. #76

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    > You can't do a simple rename of a PC with CC3

    Yup, that's a true and good criticism.

  2. #77
    torledo's Avatar
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    I wonder if it surprises RM that it's been embraced by a number of secondary schools even today, not knowing the history of the product i'd imagine it's inception was borne out of a need to provide this overlay for managing client-server networks when primaries and secondaries were building fledgling NT networks. In those days secondaries probably didn't have full-time IT pro's and the primaries like many today also didn't have the support staff onsite.

    It seems obvious that the product had to continue to improve becuase network admins were asking for more and more from it.

    Not sure what ZAW features windows 2008 has added, but i don't think M$ have gone the distance with creating the single pane of glass mgmt where you have this idiot management interface and tools under one product set, the tools are still too scattered for vanilla to be a plug in and go setup.

    So third parties like RM with CC4 still have a very relevant product. With school network teams often having a greater breadth of duties encopassing anything vaguely IT than fellow pros in industry or FE and HE, it sounds like a sensible thing to let an overlay reduce the TCO of a windows infrastruture to allow a school IT team to get on with the other stuff for which there aren't enough hours in the day.

  3. 6 Thanks to torledo:

    bossman (2nd May 2008), Butuz (2nd May 2008), PaulBM (18th March 2009), reggiep (30th April 2008), sparkeh (1st May 2008), webman (30th April 2008)

  4. #78

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    > Network admins were asking for more and more from it.

    The problem with that is that the more you add the less simple it gets. Ultimately, why would you spend extra money buying something that essentially substitutes one pile of complexity with another?

    [A tangential issue is that the vanilla admin tools have inevitably been less buggy than anyone else's]

    > So third parties like RM with CC4 still have a very relevant product.

    Non-BSF CC4 progress in the world, especially CC4 whenever it gets around to running on 2K8 will be interesting. FWIW if a couple of the changes I've heard about turn out to be true I'll retire from challenging the Can't Do X-ers because they'll be right, although not necessarily for their reasons.

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    monkeyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    No it isn't, that means nothing. CC3 is an exclusively education product and its no surprise you hadn't heard of it if you didn't work in education.
    Can you please enlighten me, as to how the education sector is so uniue that third party tools like CC3 and Ranger would be necessary. I can see how they once made sense with NT4 and people being promoted into the job within a school, where they did not have an IT background though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyx View Post
    Can you please enlighten me, as to how the education sector is so uniue that third party tools like CC3 and Ranger would be necessary. I can see how they once made sense with NT4 and people being promoted into the job within a school, where they did not have an IT background though.
    it makes it secure without having to do anything so that poxy kids can't do anything they shouldn't be!

    One difference between education and not education.... the childrens.

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    monkeyx's Avatar
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    it makes it secure without having to do anything so that poxy kids can't do anything they shouldn't be!

    One difference between education and not education.... the childrens.
    Hmm so let me see. The average age of the customer is lower :P

    Desktop security is very good through GPO?

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    Joanne's Avatar
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    yeah... lower which means more intent on destroying things.

    Thing with gpo is that it can be very easy to miss something off... and one little hole left can mean big things later on.... if you haven't worked in education then you won't know what the kids are like!

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    > Network admins were asking for more and more from it.

    The problem with that is that the more you add the less simple it gets. Ultimately, why would you spend extra money buying something that essentially substitutes one pile of complexity with another?

    [A tangential issue is that the vanilla admin tools have inevitably been less buggy than anyone else's]

    > So third parties like RM with CC4 still have a very relevant product.

    Non-BSF CC4 progress in the world, especially CC4 whenever it gets around to running on 2K8 will be interesting. FWIW if a couple of the changes I've heard about turn out to be true I'll retire from challenging the Can't Do X-ers because they'll be right, although not necessarily for their reasons.

    Ok I will bite what you heard about cc4 and for what reasons see if can confirm do deny stuff for you...

    As for advancement of cc4 big think to remember like lot of upgrades nt to 2k, 2k to 2k3 some people will and so won't.

    So CC3 networks will stay with c33 and then move to cc5 (of what ever product will be) as Part of the jump to 2k8 (is that we are calling it now??)

    Again some cc3 networks due to renewal of network servers and other projects will move to cc4.

    That is fact of product cycle life.

    Russell

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    if you haven't worked in education then you won't know what the kids are like!
    I have now worked in education for 3.5 years. The workload is FAR higher than I imagined, but at least I no longer work weekends for free and travel a silly amount of miles for silly meetings. LOL

    One big difference I can see is that you can't sack the the little darlings for trying to hack the system

  12. #85
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    I like RM for its simplicity and ease of use.

    I hate RM because I am never challenged!

  13. #86
    kerrymoralee9280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanne View Post
    I like RM for its simplicity and ease of use.

    I hate RM because I am never challenged!
    Don't those kinda go against each other? That's like saying I hate feeling lazy but love doing nothing!

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    pretty much :P hahah.

    What I mean is I wish I could delve into the active directory (and sometimes I do... we have some very special users for testing) but I don't apply GPO's to machines etc. I have a test network but I don't spend much time on it

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    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanne View Post
    I like RM for its simplicity and ease of use.

    I hate RM because I am never challenged!
    That's kinda the point i was trying to make....you're not being challenged perhaps in the same way as you would with a vanilla network, but i'm assuming the overlay by reducing the admin burden when managing the windows environment should allow you to concentrate on other things and be challenged in other areas, through it's simplicity as you put it.

    Other things could be development of the school website or VLE, setting up linux servers, doing a voip project, and a whole host of other things.

    Now vanilla adminstrators do make the time to do all those other things i've mentioned alongside firefighting vanilla. But they need to do the work to get they're vanilla networks to that stage....so that's assembling the tools that RM provides in a single pane of glass and the learning curve.

    RM as an out of the box solution to a problem is a good idea, and while it's a education specific solution limiting it's usefulness on a cv for jobs within schools or at RM hq....it's also the case a lot of admins don't want to do the desktop support or the Active Directory mgmt in future roles, maybe they want to work with open source or become a DBA or a VLE developer in future roles. In which case vanilla or CC3 experience is slightly less relevant.

    We all know windows support isn't the most lucratvie of areas, education or industry.

  16. #89

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    > Ok I will bite what you heard about cc4 and for what reasons see if can
    > confirm do deny stuff for you...

    I wasn't fishing, honest. I've got the means to throw my concerns at RM too, so I'll save it until I find out if it's true, and if so whether it's something on their to-fix-later list or set in stone.

    > remember like lot of upgrades nt to 2k, 2k to 2k3 some people will
    > and so won't.

    Sure but neither of those is quite so straightforward in RMsville: It was the NT svr + 9x -> 2K[3] svr + XP which was a significant jump with significant benefits all round. Motives for the svr 2K to 2K3 are things like the 2K box is past it, and upgrading it to 2K3 is a relatively small part/cost of moving the contents over to a shiny new server... and/or things like Capita dropping support for SIMS on 2K.

    CC3->CC4 upgrade obviously gets you some new some new management tools, but means rebuilding all your desktops (and paying a significant upgrade cost for each one) to typically end up where you are right now, except with more stress on the server and potential teething troubles for a year or two.

    That's very hard sell or it should be to anyone spending public money. I certainly wouldn't upgrade to CC4 until it came on 2K8, and I probably still wouldn't do it until the raison d'etre, the applications an organisation wants to run on the system, begin to stop working on XP, or 2014... whichever comes first.

    Again it will be interesting to see what people actually do and why.

  17. #90
    Joanne's Avatar
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    we've got the money to upgrade to cc4 this year... this amounts to more than the annual budget given to my fella for the entire running costs of his network!! Poor poor school, where the kids do well, so they don't get any money!

    Oh and of course they have to pay all of their 'management' extortinate wages....

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