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Netbooks, PDA and Phones Thread, Why iPads are not for the Enterprise in Technical; Originally Posted by zag I think the standard cheap acer laptops we buy are around 448 ex vat. Greif, no ...
  1. #91

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    I think the standard cheap acer laptops we buy are around 448 ex vat.
    Greif, no wonder your users like the iPads better. I'd rather swallow rocks than use an Acer.

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    mac_shinobi (17th July 2012)

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    Can you elaborate a bit on how you do the staff purchase? Do they own the device? Is there a scheme? How do you avoid tax issues?
    School purchases the iPad, staff have a monthly sum deducted off their wage over the course of a year until it's paid back. Once it's paid back, they own the device outright. VAT / Tax side of things - *shrug* how they work all that out is the finance department... the only benefit is monthly repayments out of their wage. They don't get it any cheaper than anyone else in education purchasing direct from Apple.

    How do your staff write reports on their iPads?
    Well at the moment they do it online via ePortal, therefore, they just log onto ePortal from the iPad instead of their previous device.

    How do they create media, or the MANY MANY powerpoints, on their iPads?
    QuickOffice HD, or Keynote, both of which can save & open PPT format (there are other choices out there also... basically, all common file formats are accounted for via various apps and can be produced to work across all platforms). Media - videos can be created in iMovie and exported to MP4. Images can be created in the plethora of image apps out there.

    Do they need laptops/desktop to complement the iPads?
    In some cases yes, in some cases no. That's down to the general IT ability of the individual.

    I see it as iPads are a complement to existing services, they can no way replace what is already there. It is an extension though, and they are good at what they do.
    Depends on the individual and the specific task at hand for that individual. Some staff can work happily solely on their iPad / mobile device. Others prefer the more standard methods.

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    pcstru (17th July 2012)

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    The Ipad 2's we buy at the moment are 268 ex vat.

    I think the standard cheap acer laptops we buy are around 448 ex vat.

    Obviously Apples to Oranges but tablets are not more expensive than laptops in my experience. Unless of course your wanting to buy windows 8 tablets

    Emerge is 99 per device and is very expensive I'll give you that one. But you can get a site license which (if we had 100 ipads) would work out at a much more reasonable 33 each.

    The only other extra thing we buy as standard is the VGA adapter which is 19.99. You don't need a keyboard or applecare from our trial experience. Case's have proved useful but we leave that for the teacher to decide. We are also looking to provide a 20 itunes voucher so I guess you can include that as well.

    All in all, ipads are a little bit cheaper if anything.
    So an ipad over 3 years, forgetting about the emerge server of cost:

    268 (ipad2)
    297 (3 year emerge)
    19 (vga)
    20 (itunes)
    -----
    604

    Sounds expensive

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    Who pays for the device when they get broken or break down? If it becomes a 'requirement' to complete their lessons does it become the schools responsibility to pay for the staff's devices?

    Do they not mind typing on a screen? I find it really annoying, but I suppose I have grown up with keyboards and am able to touch type, which seems impossible on a screen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theblacksheep View Post
    So an ipad over 3 years, forgetting about the emerge server of cost:

    268 (ipad2)
    297 (3 year emerge)
    19 (vga)
    20 (itunes)
    -----
    604

    Sounds expensive
    Arguing about cost is nearly entirely pointless. As someone said earlier - apples and oranges. The iPad is not a full computer device. It can't do everything a PC can do, but that doesn't mean it is a useless device when placed in the right 'niche' in a school. 604 over 3 years is not expensive.

    Laptop + warranty + Windows, Office etc... + support costs (admit it, laptops have a much higher support requirement than desktops and tablets) and you'll easily surpass 604 over 3 years.

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    Very good post about surface.

    Microsoft's foray into flatland | TG Daily

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    Indeed arguing about cost is daft. They differ for every establishments' individual implementation, eg: We don't use or need "Emerge" or VGA adapters.

    Who pays for the device when they get broken or break down? If it becomes a 'requirement' to complete their lessons does it become the schools responsibility to pay for the staff's devices?
    If it's their device, they do. If it's the school's device, we do. We can get full spares and self-repair outside of warranty. Inside of warranty we take them to the AppleStore. We have a few spare iPads as well just in case. But as said, apps do create stuff in standard formats. Staff have access to and save to network shares. In case of emergency, there's nothing stopping them accessing the same resources via other methods / devices.

    Do they not mind typing on a screen? I find it really annoying, but I suppose I have grown up with keyboards and am able to touch type, which seems impossible on a screen.
    Down to the individual. We accomodate iPads for those who WANT TO USE THEM. We're not forcing them on people. It's their choice. If they choose to use one it's assumed they're happy with all the quirks. I can type just as quick on the iPad's screen as I can on my desktop keyboard. You simply get used to it thru continued use, same as with anything else. Some have gone out and bought their own bluetooth keyboard, that's their choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Arguing about cost is nearly entirely pointless. As someone said earlier - apples and oranges. The iPad is not a full computer device. It can't do everything a PC can do, but that doesn't mean it is a useless device when placed in the right 'niche' in a school. 604 over 3 years is not expensive.

    Laptop + warranty + Windows, Office etc... + support costs (admit it, laptops have a much higher support requirement than desktops and tablets) and you'll easily surpass 604 over 3 years.
    I'm not arguing about cost, i'm pointing out the full cost over a 3 year period if you want to supply SIMS (which that school does), its not simply a 260 purchase. Schools need to evaluate what the devices actually achieve (yes they are apples and oranges, but they are both achieve the end result of feeding you) and how much it will cost them over a period. I've also not said it is useless.

    Sorry, even with a replacement power supply, ess licencing we're still under 500 per laptop over 3 years.

    Support costs is debatable, some we don't see at all, some we do. Depends very much on the end user. Its not something that was added to the raw ipad cost, so wasn't considered with the raw laptop cost.
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 17th July 2012 at 11:51 AM.

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    zag
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
    How do your staff write reports on their iPads?
    How do they create media, or the MANY MANY powerpoints, on their iPads?
    Do they need laptops/desktop to complement the iPads?

    I see it as iPads are a complement to existing services, they can no way replace what is already there. It is an extension though, and they are good at what they do.
    Yep exactly. We don't require staff to just use ipads and nothing else. They all have department office computers and a staff computer work room to use at any time.

    I think the main advantages of the tablets are classroom teaching (in front of kids).

    They do School reports via the terminal server from home usually which can be virtually any device. Most of the time its their home computer.

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    For me it comes down to cost benefit analysis:

    What is the learning outcome of the device?
    What will it cost to support? (set up, maintenance, replacement etc)
    This applies to everything we spend money on in school: laptops, cameras, pens, books, staff.....

    If there's a benefit to learning outcomes, then we should facilitate it. I work in an infant school and my instinct is that touch interface devices will probably offer most benefit to our youngest pupils - not that there's nothing in it for older students, but the 3 year olds I work with struggle with a qwerty keyboard but can already use an iPhone when they arrive. Also, if we are trying to make our pupils "digitally literate" they should have access to as wide a range of technology as possible. We already have a child in school who uses an iPad as an "assistative communications device" - he has speech difficulties and it turns symbols and typing into speech in real time, allowing to take part in main stream lessons. Cost of iPad + App less than 500. Previous device with similar,but more limited functionality and heavier was over 2500 - again you need to know why you're buying it and work out whether it's good value for money. In this case, the iPad won hands down.

    Personal experience, I own a windows 7 laptop, an iPad, Android phone, iPod touch and work in a Windows Server / client environment. All have their advantages - the iOS devices are the only ones that have worked out of the box and have needed no support. Up time is 127 days on my iPad - since I upgraded to iOS 5.1 which only required one click to accept the update. In the classroom, two really big strengths are it turns on instantly and the battery lasts all day. In terms of use, the iPad is great for accessing content, Garageband is very heavily used, I have a great app for training for associated board aural music exams, great recipe book, works well for streaming music and TV to my hi-fi and TV, but for preparing documents, I find a PC is much quicker. As someone else said, for what it's designed to do, the iPad is very effective and reliable, but trying to make it do something that wasn't in Apple's list is probably not time well spent.

    We should be aiming towards 1-2-1 availability of computing devices, but until that day comes, devices are going to need to be shared. I'm hoping that Win 8 tablets make that easier - I know it's do-able with iPads, but they're not designed to make it straightforward.

    In general, making all of the unrelated operating systems play nicely is difficult - at the minute I think that will be overcome by using SaaS applications, so that everyone always has the same version of applications to work on (and should be much less hassle for me to manage) but that's some way off too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    My experience of a variety of XP tablets was that they were clunky, had cheap low spec CPU's, relatively low-res screens and the wireless integration of XP to networks was..well..let's just say 'not the best' due to the use of cheap onboard wireless chipsets and the lack of dedicated managed wireless to handle the traffic. Oh, did I mention that they were not exactly cheap either (strange because the internal components certainly were)?
    Yeah, it's not a new idea, but doing it right in the enterprise, is.
    I almost forgot to mention that more than a few required use of a stylus as well. And lets not talk about the on-screen keyboard.
    Hang on, I'll take off my rose tinted specs now and recall the cupboard full of them that I 'managed' because users disliked them so much. I'm rather looking forwards to Windows 8 on a tablet tablet after remembering all of that now
    Brings back 'unhappy' memories of circa 2003-4 when a client of mine (middle school), invested (wasted) 15k of ICT budget (all of their ICT budget for a year), on a provision of Compaq tablet devices. Oh how I larfed (in despair).

    I advised the client not to buy said devices, and to strongly consider going down the laptop route, which would double the provision... Needless to say, the above text suggests I was largely ignored. The client ended up with a device which was unresponsive, with a screen so pathetic, it made the device mostly unusable.

    Anyway, the point I'm making is this - whilst the school had a vision of the future, they had in fact invested a large some of money in what were in affect a one trick pony... The one trick part being the aesthetics, which is where the ipad ties in.

    I look forward to Microsoft releasing the Surface, as well as the offerings from Dell and the like... Interesting times a head.
    Last edited by Mr_Jiminy; 20th July 2012 at 12:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Jiminy View Post
    Brings back 'unhappy' memories of circa 2003-4 when a client of mine (middle school), invested (wasted) 15k of ICT budget (all of their ICT budget for a year), on a provision of Compaq tablet devices. Oh how I larfed (in despair).

    I advised the client not to buy said devices, and to strongly consider going down the laptop route, which would double the provision... Needless to say, the above text suggests I was largely ignored. The client ended up with a device which was unresponsive, with a screen so pathetic, it made the device mostly unusable.

    Anyway, the point I'm making is this - whilst the school had a vision of the future, they had in fact invested a large some of money in what were in affect a one trick pony... The one trick part being the aesthetics, which is where the ipad ties in.

    I look forward to Microsoft releasing the Surface, as well as the offerings from Dell and the like... Interesting times a head.
    I still love my Compaq tc4200 and am using it now, we only got one of them though, and while great for me probably was not the best for use in a primary by students but a great little machine that still runs Windows 7 and Visual Studio fine (if slowly) to this day.

    Have been trialing a W8 tablet in most of my schools for a while though, most are reasonably excited about it in the tablet form factor apart from the best funded but most near sighted of them.
    Last edited by SYNACK; 20th July 2012 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    I still love my Compaq tc4200 and am using it now, we only got one of them though, and while great for me probably was not the best for use in a primary by students but a great little machine that still runs Windows 7 and Visual Studio fine (if slowly) to this day.

    Have been trialing a W8 tablet in most of my schools for a while though, most are reasonably excited about it in the tablet form factor apart from the best funded but most near sighted of them.
    Yes, hmmm, well the 'orrible devices I'm ranting on about were not quite as advanced.

    Compaq tablet pc tc1000
    Compaq Tablet PC TC1000 - North America/U.S. QuickSpecs

    Sent a cold shiver down my spine when I google'd it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Jiminy View Post
    Yes, hmmm, well the 'orrible devices I'm ranting on about were not quite as advanced.

    Compaq tablet pc tc1000
    Compaq Tablet PC TC1000 - North America/U.S. QuickSpecs

    Sent a cold shiver down my spine when I google'd it.
    Eeep, transmeta, those things were the deffinition of slow when they were released let alone later. Should have been ok for extremely light weight tasks under XP but not much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    If this is the case then why do all these MDM tools exist and are being invested in by organisations. Is it the case that tools like these are needed when dealing with large amounts of them and is this not a missing feature. Should tech staffing be increased 10-20 fold so that these devices can be handled individually.

    Users can to a certain extent manage their devices but things still go wrong and this also denies the existance of users acting in nefarious ways like filling them with games, hacking tools and the like.

    By all means, lets go back to having each and every user having their own web id and password, we can keep them all in a big spreadsheet. It'll be great.

    Or we can use tools to automate what can be automated, make the devices self repair as much as possible and apply as much sanity to their usage as is nessisary in each environment.
    I'd argue that MDM tools have long been invested in by enterprise, precisely because of the proliferation of the blackberry. It made sense for the MDM vendors to add Windows Phone and IOS capability which existing sites rolling out iPhone and wp will take advantage of, that does not mean that MDM has to be invested in in sites without an existing MDM infrastructure....much of the MDM features for the iPhone in particular are about self-service anyway, rather than pushing out and control of mobile devices. you can add self-service aspects to allowing users secure connectivity without making major investments in mdm.

    with proper training of staff (that's the key bit), guidelines on usage for regular users and visitors then there's no reason why an environment which supports idevices in a relatively hands-off way needs to generate a tonne of support calls or take up a silly amount of time of ICT support (the proliferation of ruddy netbooks and wireless trolleys in schools would have been a far more disruptive and challenging to IT depts.'revolution'), after all it's not as if they have to build in a infrastructure or extend to another layer of AV servers, update servers, policy servers and all the other stuff which supports a windows infrastructure.

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