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Netbooks, PDA and Phones Thread, Why iPads are not for the Enterprise in Technical; misread the title thinking this was related to the U.S.S. Enterprise...
  1. #16

    Gatt's Avatar
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    misread the title thinking this was related to the U.S.S. Enterprise

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    And how does that make a difference?
    In terms of usability or manageability or integration?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    And how does that make a difference?
    **Multi-user**

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    And how does that make a difference?
    Already been addressed somewhat.
    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    Security configuration, application management more graceful than eight-dozen iTunes accounts, OS management and updates... they allow for a level of management and control, which has benefits beyond making IT happy - users won't have to worry about OS updates, for example, which is enough to panic some people still.
    I can see that you are coming at this from an angle of purely thinking about what users are doing with the device in their hand and it working perfectly.
    However management of these devices has a big impact on the end user experience and can't be ignored or palmed off. Whilst AD integration/integration into your existing infrastructure isn't the most exciting of topics when comparing which tablets to go for, it does have benefits.
    Last edited by sparkeh; 13th July 2012 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #20

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    iPads are designed for personal use. Windows (even home editions) are designed for multi-user. I think this is why Apple hasn't taken off in the Enterprise. Apple's market share is growing, but Microsoft easily have 80%+ of all educational and business setups.

    Active Directory has been around for over 10 years and it has grown to be more manageable and flexible. Ideal for managing users, computers and of course policies.

    There's nothing else out there (all ready to go) that allows you to specify a single GPO and this could apply to a workstation, notebook, netbook and in future tablets. This is a true multi-platform, all centrally managed from one Active Directory.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Ok .. I'll rephrase / repeat the question and expand

    From previous research looking at Tablet devices in schools which aspects of *using* the device would be different when considering Windows8 over iPads? What limitations would there be from the choice of device based around the ideas of staff use, class use, 1:1 schemes? How is school infrastructure presently different to when use of previous Tablet PCs were introduced and can we learn anything from this?
    And in that sentence you've bypassed the issue. The issue isn't *just* about using tablets. Its about managing them in a classroom environment, in a school etc... Manageability is just as important as being able to poke things on them easily.

    You can't compare current tablets to old ones as they lacked usability so they simply didn't get used (example given earlier). I've only every met one person who successfully used a Windows XP tablet PC.

    As it stands, iPads in a shared environment are difficult to deal with. How do kids store work easily? How do they retrieve work easily? Put simply - they can't. It involves much messing about with logging in and out on a tablet interface not designed for it. Whereas if the interface was designed from the ground up to handle multiple users, and had central management so that as soon as a user logs in they can get to their stuff at a touch of an icon (or print etc...) then that is something that will work better in shared environments.

    1:1 is a different issue altogether. If the device is entirely 1 person's device, then manageability is much less important from a 'user logging in' POV. The current tools like Profile Manager and Meraki handle it sort of ok.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    In terms of usability or manageability or integration?
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    **Multi-user**
    Will all devices always be multi-user? What has previous research shown about using windows based tablets in education?

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Already been addressed somewhat.

    I can see that you are coming at this from an angle of purely thinking about what users are doing with the device in their hand and it working perfectly.
    However management of these devices has a big impact on the end user experience and can't be ignored or palmed off. Whilst AD integration/integration into your existing infrastructure isn't the most exciting of topics when comparing which tablets to go for, it does have benefits.
    And so we are discussing the differences on how devices are managed? Does anyone have a key list of the differences? Is it impossible to manage iOS (or Android) devices compared to windows devices?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    iPads are designed for personal use. Windows (even home editions) are designed for multi-user. I think this is why Apple hasn't taken off in the Enterprise. Apple's market share is growing, but Microsoft easily have 80%+ of all educational and business setups.

    Active Directory has been around for over 10 years and it has grown to be more manageable and flexible. Ideal for managing users, computers and of course policies.

    There's nothing else out there (all ready to go) that allows you to specify a single GPO and this could apply to a workstation, notebook, netbook and in future tablets. This is a true multi-platform, all centrally managed from one Active Directory.
    Yes, AD has been around for many years and was preciously used with earlier Tablet devices ... how is that different to how it would be implemented now?

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Will all devices always be multi-user? What has previous research shown about using windows based tablets in education?
    Until education can suddenly afford hundreds of thousands of pounds to provide 1:1 computing, yes.

    And so we are discussing the differences on how devices are managed? Does anyone have a key list of the differences? Is it impossible to manage iOS (or Android) devices compared to windows devices?
    Yes. There is no way that I know of in Android or iOS to have a user log in, then have mapped drives, and a pre-determined environment set by the profile/group policies etc...

    Yes, AD has been around for many years and was preciously used with earlier Tablet devices ... how is that different to how it would be implemented now?
    As I said, the interface on earlier tablets was difficult to use. The manageability was great.

  9. #24

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    GD Have you used W8, the ui is completely different and designed for touch. The hardware is also more suited, low power usage and heat for longer battery life, lighter weight etc. along with ssds for data access speed and robustness. It is a completely different proposition than XP or 7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    And in that sentence you've bypassed the issue. The issue isn't *just* about using tablets. Its about managing them in a classroom environment, in a school etc... Manageability is just as important as being able to poke things on them easily.
    Please see the section of the question about the school infrastructure ... this bit was specifically aimed at asking what gives you manageability, not just from a device / deployment point of view but connectivity, safeguarding, security, etc.

    You can't compare current tablets to old ones as they lacked usability so they simply didn't get used (example given earlier). I've only every met one person who successfully used a Windows XP tablet PC.
    Without wanting to sound like a broken record ... this is why I keep asking about reading the previous research. We *all* have anecdotes about how device / technology X seemed a good idea but was never really used by the 1/5/10 people we know had access to it.

    As it stands, iPads in a shared environment are difficult to deal with. How do kids store work easily? How do they retrieve work easily? Put simply - they can't. It involves much messing about with logging in and out on a tablet interface not designed for it. Whereas if the interface was designed from the ground up to handle multiple users, and had central management so that as soon as a user logs in they can get to their stuff at a touch of an icon (or print etc...) then that is something that will work better in shared environments.

    1:1 is a different issue altogether. If the device is entirely 1 person's device, then manageability is much less important from a 'user logging in' POV. The current tools like Profile Manager and Meraki handle it sort of ok.
    Ok ... so now we are talking about how the type of scheme / system you are running makes a difference to how well it fits into the required use by the school. Have previous schemes / researched given us any information we can take to SLT to show the lessons which need to be learnt?

    How did SLT authorising schemes in places like Essa Academy make their decision about iPads? What is the latest from the eLearning Foundation about it in comparison to previous schemes they have helped schools run?
    Last edited by GrumbleDook; 13th July 2012 at 03:25 PM. Reason: grammar

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    GD Have you used W8, the ui is completely different and designed for touch. The hardware is also more suited, low power usage and heat for longer battery life, lighter weight etc. along with ssds for data access speed and robustness. It is a completely different proposition than XP or 7.
    And you can use the same argument for iOS and Android devices. Yet previous schemes using Tablets do mention the battery issue but not as much as some other problems that arose.

  12. #27

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    Tablet devices failed with XP as they didn't really market it, no one understood it and the interface was not tablet friendly. It was keyboard and mouse friendly. Active Directory was still there ready to manage it, but this wasn't the issue.

    Windows 8 has been designed for tablets from the beginning, but then there's a big question mark just how it'll fit in with desktops/notebooks (but that's irrelevant to this discussion). Active Directory is bigger than it ever has been and will offer even more policies to tweak devices (of different types) out the box.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    And you can use the same argument for iOS and Android devices. Yet previous schemes using Tablets do mention the battery issue but not as much as some other problems that arose.
    What other problems, I was referring to the issues brought up by you about the previous 'failure' of tablets. Technically these are slates but apple went and stuffed up that term too refusing to call their device what it was and leading to the terms changing. Apple's priority is not manageability and they continue to prove how they will flush corporate tools down the toilet if it goes outside their scope of interest, just look at the dropping of servers, the lack of good documentation, the redaction of server editions and tools. The webifying of installers and tools making everything hit the web to work. The inability to downgrade or site licence. How many examples do I need to provide.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    What other problems, I was referring to the issues brought up by you about the previous 'failure' of tablets. Technically these are slates but apple went and stuffed up that term too refusing to call their device what it was and leading to the terms changing. Apple's priority is not manageability and they continue to prove how they will flush corporate tools down the toilet if it goes outside their scope of interest, just look at the dropping of servers, the lack of good documentation, the redaction of server editions and tools. The webifying of installers and tools making everything hit the web to work. The inability to downgrade or site licence. How many examples do I need to provide.
    You said
    GD Have you used W8, the ui is completely different and designed for touch. The hardware is also more suited, low power usage and heat for longer battery life, lighter weight etc. along with ssds for data access speed and robustness. It is a completely different proposition than XP or 7.
    and all of the above are things you could say about iOS and Android devices over XP / 7 on a tablet / slate. Previous schemes had issues with batteries, in the same way that previous laptop setups (1:1 or class sets) have had problems so there limited difference between tablet and laptop for that problem, just different ways of dealing with it. Other reported problems included problems with wireless infrastructure, storage of files (arguments about mandatory vs roaming profiles, syncing of offline folders, etc), damage to students / staff responsible devices (hard to say 'owned' as people tend to say that to mean BYOD rather than devices bought / leased via the school), etc. Are some of these still relevant and are they more relevant to W8 or iOS or Android ... or equally relevant?

  15. #30
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    There will be a move away from active directory. Individual devices are the way forward even in education.

    The only reason we needed to manage(restrict) things was because Windows was so damn complicated.

    One thing we have learned from our school ipad deployment is that it doesn't _need_ to be managed. Users are quite happy and capable of doing it their selves.



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