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Netbooks, PDA and Phones Thread, Students Personal Laptops in Technical; Originally Posted by Face-Man I would just present the head with the following possibilities and ask them to think about ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Face-Man View Post
    I would just present the head with the following possibilities and ask them to think about whether it is a good idea.

    1) Kid brings in inappropriate material from home into school they view this at back on class.
    2) This material is distributed across the network to the other computer with the room.
    3) Some smart kid takes a picture with their build in webcam of their "favourite" teacher and uses photo shop adapt the photo
    4) The student uses school internet connection anonymously send this to a local newspaper/governor..
    This sounds like somebody scared of change would say to me, this is something i would expect from teachers! or perhaps this is just down to the wide range of students we all have in our schools some schools need locks on everything others like ours have an open door policy.

    I wonder if the same discussions were going on when schools gave pencils and paper to students?

    "oh no little freddy can now draw in greater detail instead of that crappy chalk board!!!
    what can we do to stop him from drawing high detailed pictures of his favorite teacher and sending them to the local press." "oh no freddy can pass notes around the classroom about bobbies funny looking teeth"

    The world is changing, We're a One School Pathfinder due to open next October and the network will be designed in a way to facilitate the use of personal devices. We believe that students should be allowed to use their own equipment(ie provide their own paper), if they can afford it, those that cant will be able to book a netbook on loan from our library. Luckily the majority of our students are in a position to have their own equipment.

    if a student went round posting up posters of freddies favorite teacher or caught sharing drugs/illegal software in the car park or tripping up a student in the corridor every action that is seen as inappropriate if caught/reported should get the appropriate punishment. Its only teaching the kids how to use these tools will allow them to grow up and hopefully use the technology properly in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz350 View Post
    This sounds like somebody scared of change would say to me, this is something i would expect from teachers! or perhaps this is just down to the wide range of students we all have in our schools some schools need locks on everything others like ours have an open door policy.

    I wonder if the same discussions were going on when schools gave pencils and paper to students?

    "oh no little freddy can now draw in greater detail instead of that crappy chalk board!!!
    what can we do to stop him from drawing high detailed pictures of his favorite teacher and sending them to the local press." "oh no freddy can pass notes around the classroom about bobbies funny looking teeth"

    The world is changing, We're a One School Pathfinder due to open next October and the network will be designed in a way to facilitate the use of personal devices. We believe that students should be allowed to use their own equipment(ie provide their own paper), if they can afford it, those that cant will be able to book a netbook on loan from our library. Luckily the majority of our students are in a position to have their own equipment.

    if a student went round posting up posters of freddies favorite teacher or caught sharing drugs/illegal software in the car park or tripping up a student in the corridor every action that is seen as inappropriate if caught/reported should get the appropriate punishment. Its only teaching the kids how to use these tools will allow them to grow up and hopefully use the technology properly in the future.


    I'd have similar reservations and I'm not resistant to change it just sounds like more of a management headache to me. All of the issue above are valid points in my opinion.

    Who supports these devices to get them on the system, let me guess suddenly you have to support Mac, Linux, Windows, iphones you name it with NO additional training. What happens if school staff damage an expensive laptop?

    Software, will you tell every student/parent that they need Office or Works or whatever then staff need to be able to open all of these document formats. This is fair enough if you're going Open Office if you do let me know i'm still looking for a secondary school that exclusively uses OO.

    Remember just because the world is changing doesn't mean it's for the better.

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    maniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Face-Man View Post
    I would just present the head with the following possibilities and ask them to think about whether it is a good idea.

    1) Kid brings in inappropriate material from home into school they view this at back on class.
    2) This material is distributed across the network to the other computer with the room.
    3) Some smart kid takes a picture with their build in webcam of their "favourite" teacher and uses photo shop adapt the photo
    4) The student uses school internet connection anonymously send this to a local newspaper/governor...

    This is without the issues around playing games, cyberbullying the poor kid with the Apple Mac, compatibility, licensing, virus, hacking etc.

    Surely the solution is if the parents have already purchased laptops for the students they will need to replace them in two years or so. Get in contact with the e-learning foundation and draw up a plan to be a replacement service for laptops that can be purchased over the next two years at a reduced price. Every kid has the same device, same software and same security. Though make sure they remember to employ somebody to support them.
    I can see your point, but some of these can be addressed.

    1) This is no different to what students can do with mobile phones now
    2) Any guest network will not allow device-to-device communication, only device to internet/firewall etc.
    3) Kids have mobile phones with cameras on, and already take photos and videos when they shouldn't Just search youtube for your school name, I bet there's something on there somewhere.
    4) If the system is properly setup, anonymous surfing is not going to happen, but what's to stop them doing that sort of thing from home anyway?

    Playing games, simelar problems to what we have now. Cyberbullying, same issues as we have now. Compatibility, well whatever resources you allow access to will probably be web based anyway which is crossplatform and thus it's a non-issue; it's likely that 90% of devices students bring in would be windows based anyway. Licensing is the responsibility of the end user for the device, and any services offered to it would be licensed appropreately for the userbase, no differently to now. Viruses wouldn't be a big issue, as the devices would only be able to talk to the internet and secured servers, and wouldn't connect in such as way as to be able to transmit viruses easily, i.e no direct file shares etc. Hacking, again secured network no device to device communication, hacking becomes a non issue.

    The big issues for most schools with students bringing in their own devices will be non-technical ones such as insurance, theft and security, and what to do about students walking to and from school with a potentially expensive laptop on them. There would have to be good guidelines as to what devices were acceptable to be brought in, and procedures written and put in place for how students own devices would be stored and physically managed within the school.

    While I can see the logic in the school supplying devices, getting enough parents to buy into this sort of scheme to make it worthwhile is difficult in my experience.

    As for the support questions, the end device remains the responsibility of the end user. If it doesn't work, then they get a school machines to use - plain and simple. The school could offer a technicians service to the parents which could be a chargeable service at a reasonable rate, but I don't see why there's any obligation on the schools part to provide a technicians service to end users devices if they are owned by the individual and not the school.

    Mike.
    Last edited by maniac; 30th November 2009 at 11:17 PM.

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    A point that has been bought up here in similar discussions is that we're an inclusive education establishment not exclusive, allot of parents can't afford the uniform (maybe 15%) never mind a laptop, you just can't exclude all of those students and create a two tier school and if we're going down that route why not just bring back grammar schools then we can have laptops there and good tools for a practical education at secondaries. In the current climate I think it will meet allot of resistance also we pay taxes to fund school I wouldn't want to find that I've suddenly got to find hundreds of pounds out to ensure that my child can participate in lessons when they arrive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookie_monster View Post
    A point that has been bought up here in similar discussions is that we're an inclusive education establishment not exclusive, allot of parents can't afford the uniform (maybe 15%) never mind a laptop, you just can't exclude all of those students and create a two tier school and if we're going down that route why not just bring back grammar schools then we can have laptops there and good tools for a practical education at secondaries. In the current climate I think it will meet allot of resistance also we pay taxes to fund school I wouldn't want to find that I've suddenly got to find hundreds of pounds out to ensure that my child can participate in lessons when they arrive.
    The problem schools will face in the next few years is the current model for ICT resourcing in a lot of schools is not sustainable in anyway, and with school funding potentially taking a hit budgets are going to be tighter than ever. How else can you ensure all your students have got a device to use in school unless you allow them to bring in their own? Most schools just won't be able to fund (long term) a big enough device pool to allow students the sort of access to ICT that the curriculum is likely to demand in the future, so somethings got to give and that something is going to be to allow students, where possible, to bring in and use their own devices. Yes it's a minefield of new problems, but none that can't be overcome, just another chapter in the evolution of ICT in schools.

    Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maniac View Post
    The problem schools will face in the next few years is the current model for ICT resourcing in a lot of schools is not sustainable in anyway, and with school funding potentially taking a hit budgets are going to be tighter than ever. How else can you ensure all your students have got a device to use in school unless you allow them to bring in their own? Most schools just won't be able to fund (long term) a big enough device pool to allow students the sort of access to ICT that the curriculum is likely to demand in the future, so somethings got to give and that something is going to be to allow students, where possible, to bring in and use their own devices. Yes it's a minefield of new problems, but none that can't be overcome, just another chapter in the evolution of ICT in schools.

    Mike.

    There will more likely be an adjustment to the curriculum if it's unsustainable, allot of IT use here is just typing up, equipment will have to be used more effectively.
    I don't think the utopian idea of every student having a laptop or other suitable device will materialise in state schools. I'm not even convinced that most subjects require it. I'm ok with it being optional for a student to bring in a laptop (if they can afford it) for taking lesson notes rather than books and pens but it shouldn't be a requirement.
    As you just stated these ideas aren't affordable, if the government wants to go down this route then it should be funded by tax increases, that way we can bulk buy on a massive scale to get a better deal, get a better warranty, provide better support and ALL students will be included in the plan.

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    I think the idea of pupils using their own laptops is in essance a good one. That said uptill now my response has been 'over my dead body' whenever the subject has come up. The reason for it is, as others have said, it seems like a management nightmare and at the moment I don't believe I have all the right answers to make it work.

    I can see how managed access points like Rukus combined with multiple-SSID's and VLANs can give students web access. But what do we do when they need access to their work or printers? As others have pointed out they'd likely be running home editions of Windows. And even if they were not adding them to the domain seems full of potential problems.

    Do we say that all work must be saved to the VLE? We have no in school local hard drive space for students?

    I think I saw papercut allows printer over a webpage. But does it require AD athentication for that to work?

    IF I saw sensible answers to work/printer access AND enough pupils were willing/able to bring in their own device to use THEN it may be worthwhile forgoing a suite upgrade one year and spend the money on managed wireless and new switches instead.

    EDIT: there is also the question of monitoring what they are doing - playing games, etc. Can't exactly install AB-Tutor on a kids lappy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I can see how managed access points like Rukus combined with multiple-SSID's and VLANs can give students web access. But what do we do when they need access to their work or printers? As others have pointed out they'd likely be running home editions of Windows. And even if they were not adding them to the domain seems full of potential problems.

    Do we say that all work must be saved to the VLE? We have no in school local hard drive space for students?

    I think I saw papercut allows printer over a webpage. But does it require AD athentication for that to work?

    IF I saw sensible answers to work/printer access AND enough pupils were willing/able to bring in their own device to use THEN it may be worthwhile forgoing a suite upgrade one year and spend the money on managed wireless and new switches instead.

    EDIT: there is also the question of monitoring what they are doing - playing games, etc. Can't exactly install AB-Tutor on a kids lappy!
    The answer to that is two fold. Firstly a Terminal services/Citrix type system to allow students to use the schools selection of software using remote desktops or simelar technologies, that way the student device merely becomes a terminal. There is also the option of using services like WebDav to provide access to home folders via a secure interface, and also to allow printing to remote printers via HTTP (it is possible) These are the sorts of services remote office users have been using for years, but there's no reason they can't be used in a LAN environment to provide as much seperation between the servers and end devices as possible.

    Student monitoring is an issue, but if the school is that worried, they could restrict it so the only interface the student machines could access is a terminal server, so to actually use ICT recources the student has to log into a terminal session which can be monitored.

    Mike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz350 View Post
    This sounds like somebody scared of change would say to me, this is something i would expect from teachers! or perhaps this is just down to the wide range of students we all have in our schools some schools need locks on everything others like ours have an open door policy.

    I wonder if the same discussions were going on when schools gave pencils and paper to students?

    "oh no little freddy can now draw in greater detail instead of that crappy chalk board!!!
    what can we do to stop him from drawing high detailed pictures of his favorite teacher and sending them to the local press." "oh no freddy can pass notes around the classroom about bobbies funny looking teeth"

    The world is changing, We're a One School Pathfinder due to open next October and the network will be designed in a way to facilitate the use of personal devices. We believe that students should be allowed to use their own equipment(ie provide their own paper), if they can afford it, those that cant will be able to book a netbook on loan from our library. Luckily the majority of our students are in a position to have their own equipment.

    if a student went round posting up posters of freddies favorite teacher or caught sharing drugs/illegal software in the car park or tripping up a student in the corridor every action that is seen as inappropriate if caught/reported should get the appropriate punishment. Its only teaching the kids how to use these tools will allow them to grow up and hopefully use the technology properly in the future.


    Can I ask how you (or the school) plan on filtering and policing internet access when you have no control over the devices. Until recently we had issues with students bringing in portable TOR programs on USB that would bypass our filters, we have banned these programs now using software restriction policy.

    We have an ISP Netsweeper filtering service and we run a Smoothwall on site and they we're both completely bypassed by TOR. I tried it and could get anything.

    Will you just use an acceptable use policy and if they're all bypassing your filters punish them if you catch them or just turn a blind eye if not.
    The reason I ask is we had issues with some parents when they discovered that their students could access pornography in school which is why we investigated and found this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookie_monster View Post

    Will you just use an acceptable use policy and if they're all bypassing your filters punish them if you catch them or just turn a blind eye if not.
    The reason I ask is we had issues with some parents when they discovered that their students could access pornography in school which is why we investigated and found this.
    Sorry but whats stopping students bringing in porno mags, cds and memory sticks full of videos, pictures etc? This is where some of my points about each school is different, some schools need locks everywhere. Our kids are generally good and alot of our college beliefs rely on equal value and trust. So why should the 98% of students be punished and their chances of being successful in life being reduced for those 2% of students who are bad?

    tackling students using college resources to do bad things, is not just an IT problem. we are lucky and are getting a fresh start (we're not BSF). The building is being designed to reduce the opportunities for bullying. knock on effect of this is freddy and billy cant go and find a hiding spot to look at their porno mag. If billy bullies freddy there are polocies in place to punish billy. Bullying only becomes a big problem for the college if they cant prove they have procedures in place and that these procedures haven't been followed (or you have a weak head that cant face up to parent pressure).

    IMO In the case of porn on the internet on a personal laptop.... same applies it only really becomes a problem for the college (or you if you have a week head) if they cant show they/you have put systems in place that reduce risk to students at an acceptable level.

    If a student is actively trying to bypass systems put in place this becomes discipline issue and i am pretty sure if they are accessing the content while at school they are accessing the same content at home.

    Who supports these devices to get them on the system, let me guess suddenly you have to support Mac, Linux, Windows, iphones you name it with NO additional training. What happens if school staff damage an expensive laptop?

    Software, will you tell every student/parent that they need Office or Works or whatever then staff need to be able to open all of these document formats. This is fair enough if you're going Open Office if you do let me know i'm still looking for a secondary school that exclusively uses OO.

    Remember just because the world is changing doesn't mean it's for the better.
    I'll invite you along when we open next year. we already support Mac OS X, XP, Vista and netbooks running Linux, we also support staff iphones. Use of Service level agreements will layout how far we are willing to support personal devices.

    As for Office formats, all our machines currently have all compat packs and Openoffice. its no different from today and it will be no different tomorrow. You'll always be in a situation where people have different software.

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    Sorry but whats stopping students bringing in porno mags, cds and memory sticks full of videos, pictures etc?
    Mags are not my department so if a parent complains I'm not accountable, we don't have CD drives


    This is where some of my points about each school is different, some schools need locks everywhere. Our kids are generally good and alot of our college beliefs rely on equal value and trust. So why should the 98% of students be punished and their chances of being successful in life being reduced for those 2% of students who are bad?
    I totally appreciate your point your school sounds very nice. I'm more interested in how your doing things and your oppinion than trying to trip you up honest.



    As for Office formats, all our machines currently have all compat packs and Openoffice. its no different from today and it will be no different tomorrow. You'll always be in a situation where people have different software.
    I'm interested. I've posted on here before about schools running Open Office but I've not found a site running OO. I'd love to run it accross the school, we have issues with SIMS requiring MS Office but I could run it on just staff PC's.
    Do you run MS Office on all clients alongside Open Office so you don't have issues with OO docs not opening on clients with only MS Office on?

    Care to post any comments here so as not to hijack the thread Running MS Office along side Open Office


    I'll invite you along when we open next year.
    If I can get the go ahead i'll be there thanks.
    Last edited by cookie_monster; 2nd December 2009 at 10:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gaz350 View Post
    The world is changing, We're a One School Pathfinder due to open next October and the network will be designed in a way to facilitate the use of personal devices. We believe that students should be allowed to use their own equipment(ie provide their own paper), if they can afford it, those that cant will be able to book a netbook on loan from our library. Luckily the majority of our students are in a position to have their own equipment.
    Are you using any Microsoft servers or services? I'm currently reviewing our remote access before implementing terminal services for staff, but there are similar licensing issues.

    Assuming MS software:

    Do you license students per user, per machine or via external connector licenses for AD/Print/Internet/File/SQL etc services?

    What about staff users if they bring things in? As staff are not covered by external connectors afaik as they are employees. We currently license most software via schools agreement, but this is only on a per device basis.

    I assume staff/students do not have access to office (via TS or otherwise) from their personal machines due to the per machine licensing nature of office (it's always the biggest issue when we look at licensing). Add this to the fact that licenses must be the same (all vol enterprise or WAH/HUP extensions of the same license).

    Are students expected to use their machines or other small portable devices such as netbooks for more than a few short sessions during the day? I have some concerns on the small screen and KB sizes from nebtbooks causing issues during long term use (we already have some users who now have fixed machines due to this).

    I'm just curious, and it is perhaps a little harsh to suggest that people not doing all these things are somehow resistant to change, you'd be surprised at what some have to cope with. We for example spend an additional £130 when we buy every machine to put it in a metal case (the secure-in-one) to stop them being destroyed within the first term, although most rooms are much improved now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMcCoy View Post
    I'm just curious, and it is perhaps a little harsh to suggest that people not doing all these things are somehow resistant to change, you'd be surprised at what some have to cope with. We for example spend an additional £130 when we buy every machine to put it in a metal case (the secure-in-one) to stop them being destroyed within the first term, although most rooms are much improved now.
    see, that's where you went wrong. You should have bought 400 £130 netbooks, and if/when a kid
    breaks one you allow them to bring in their own paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMcCoy View Post
    Are you using any Microsoft servers or services? I'm currently reviewing our remote access before implementing terminal services for staff, but there are similar licensing issues.

    Assuming MS software:

    Do you license students per user, per machine or via external connector licenses for AD/Print/Internet/File/SQL etc services?

    What about staff users if they bring things in? As staff are not covered by external connectors afaik as they are employees. We currently license most software via schools agreement, but this is only on a per device basis.

    I assume staff/students do not have access to office (via TS or otherwise) from their personal machines due to the per machine licensing nature of office (it's always the biggest issue when we look at licensing). Add this to the fact that licenses must be the same (all vol enterprise or WAH/HUP extensions of the same license).

    Are students expected to use their machines or other small portable devices such as netbooks for more than a few short sessions during the day? I have some concerns on the small screen and KB sizes from nebtbooks causing issues during long term use (we already have some users who now have fixed machines due to this).

    I'm just curious, and it is perhaps a little harsh to suggest that people not doing all these things are somehow resistant to change, you'd be surprised at what some have to cope with. We for example spend an additional £130 when we buy every machine to put it in a metal case (the secure-in-one) to stop them being destroyed within the first term, although most rooms are much improved now.


    I’ll just add my 2 cents here if you don’t mind we’re currently using Citrix to deliver home desktops (Via Citrix Secure Gateway) and it’s been a revelation, it’s not a budget solution by and means but it’s very flexible and does allow us to make savings in other places e.g we can run lower spec desktops that also run linux or buy thin client devices with linux on board or Axel devices, Axels are very low power 7Watts in general use so that’s more savings again. Using Citrix of course means that we can support Linux, Windows and OSX at home which you cannot with TS.

    Office licensing is a pain we currently make staff that use it sign in the AUP that they have a bought copy at home (I suspect some of them might have home which I don’t think they should) this is one reason that I’d like to go Open Office.

    We are also using wireless netbooks at the moment (Stone NEO) the biggest issue with these (IMO) is the key size which students complain are too small to type properly on, I do find that the key size on my NC10 is much better as it supports nearly full size keys. This is a big factor to remember when buying netbooks.
    I do feel that they’re a bit too small for use in the 6th form as they tend to need multiple windows and may use it for a few hours but in general research lessons students won’t use it for more than a hour at a time so they’re acceptable. The battery also lasts a long time so typically we can get almost a full day out of them most of the time.

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    We allow students to bring in their own laptops however they are not permitted to connect to the network. They can have internet access through a separate wireless network which is password protected. Password is never given out to staff or students.

    All students sign an AUP and anyone caught misbehaving would have internet access removed and told not to bring laptop into school. I thought of lots of reasons not to do this but so far it's worked quite well and the kids haven't abused it.

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