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Netbooks, PDA and Phones Thread, In a Blind "Taste Test" the iPhone 5s camera blows major competitors away in Technical; Originally Posted by seawolf Yes, they were being quite selective, but that was the point I think. They looked at ...
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    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Yes, they were being quite selective, but that was the point I think. They looked at several of the most popular smartphones that people frequently take photos with, likely based off of data from Flickr (Top 6 Best Smartphones of 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!).
    What was the point if its based on popularity when that link clearly shows the Lumia listed.
    So basically if you pay nearly twice the amount you will get better camera on your phone but if you want the best camera on a phone buy a Lumia or buy a cheaper phone and get a real compact for the same price.
    Now to find a poll with a blind test that excludes the iphone 5S....

    BTW RAW mode is off by default.

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    seawolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    What was the point if its based on popularity when that link clearly shows the Lumia listed.
    As they stated in the original article, their previous comparison showed the Lumia won by a considerable margin. So, pitting against the same phones again would likely be pretty pointless. The Lumia also doesn't sell in nearly the same volumes as the other phones.

    Camera Comparison: Nokia Lumia 1020 vs Galaxy S4, iPhone 5, Lumia 925, One

    And, of course any article such as this is going to bring out lots of opinions as we've well and truly seen in this thread. That means lots of page views and that's always good for authors and publications.


    BTW RAW mode is off by default.
    But, what is the point in having it on a smartphone at all? Doesn't it just add to the cost and complexity of the device? Any opinion on this particular question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    But, what is the point in having it on a smartphone at all? Doesn't it just add to the cost and complexity of the device? Any opinion on this particular question?
    No I am not sure if it would, basically RAW is the literal data the sensor captures before any software post processing. It means you can apply much better algorithms for noise etc using a pc rather than the onboard software on the phone. @Ric_ knows more about the joys of RAW, I have never been luck enough to have a camera with support to have a play myself.
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 20th March 2014 at 03:33 PM.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    No I am not sure if it would, basically RAW is the literal data the sensor captures before any software post processing. It basically means you can apply much better algorithms for noise etc using a pc rather than the onboard software on the phone. @Ric_ knows more about the joys of RAW, I have never been luck enough to have a camera with support to have a play myself.
    Sounds about right to me but I don't claim to be an expert on the subject. Theoretically, RAW is less complex than a JPG as it's just a dump of the sensor data before it's been processed. The files are huge but give you a hell of a lot more room to edit. That said, I can still get about 800 shots on an 8GB memory card in RAW at 10MP, so file size isn't a great excuse for disabling RAW completely on a phone.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    I generally have my camera in RAW+High Quality JPEG mode most of the time, as it means if I need a photo super quickly, I can without fiddling, but I generally work with the RAW files.

    There's only one time I turn RAW off - and that's when I need super-high speed shooting. IE. If I need to take continuous shots for quite a period of time, I can get more JPG than RAW in the same time.

    I do wish more phones had RAW support to be honest. It'd make their photos more usable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    what is the point in having it on a smartphone at all?
    Google has confirmed that Android phones will be able to take RAW photos in the future. Google has given its camera API a complete makeover in an attempt to make app development easier for programmers. When the new API rolls out, it will allow apps to take photos in RAW as well as capture in a burst mode.

    As we've seen with Nokia's DNG files, RAW photography helps fix some of the flaws common in smartphone photos. Digital noise can be reduced, white balance can be corrected and small adjustments can be made to fix exposure issues. Android's new burst mode can be beneficial for action shots, but it can also be used for HDR photography like the Nexus 5's HDR+ feature. (Source)
    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Doesn't it just add to the cost and complexity of the device?
    It will force consumers to buy smartphones with larger amounts of onboard storage because RAW photos take up more space, thus making manufacturers more money.
    Last edited by Arthur; 20th March 2014 at 03:28 PM.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    It will force consumers to buy smartphones with larger amounts of onboard storage because RAW photos take up more space, thus making manufacturers more money.
    That's a very cynical way of putting it, especially as you quoted a source with various good reasons to use RAW: Digital noise can be reduced, white balance can be corrected and small adjustments can be made to fix exposure issues. EDIT:"small adjustments" is a bit ambiguous, I have found I can adjust my shots up to +/-2EV in RAW with no noticeable loss in quality, that's a pretty big adjustment!

    It would be stupid to force RAW shooting (not even top end dSLRs force you to use RAW) so those that do use it would simply need to be aware of the space issue. That said, given that my 40D (which is 10MP) produces RAW files at ~10MB per shot, I can get around about 800 on an 8GB memory card. Most phones come with at least 16GB of internal memory these days and that's a hell of a lot of photos to be storing on your phone!
    Last edited by LosOjos; 20th March 2014 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    That's a very cynical way of putting it, especially as you quoted a source with various good reasons to use RAW: Digital noise can be reduced, white balance can be corrected and small adjustments can be made to fix exposure issues. EDIT:"small adjustments" is a bit ambiguous, I have found I can adjust my shots up to +/-2EV in RAW with no noticeable loss in quality, that's a pretty big adjustment!

    It would be stupid to force RAW shooting (not even top end dSLRs force you to use RAW) so those that do use it would simply need to be aware of the space issue. That said, given that my 40D (which is 10MP) produces RAW files at ~10MB per shot, I can get around about 800 on an 8GB memory card. Most phones come with at least 16GB of internal memory these days and that's a hell of a lot of photos to be storing on your phone!
    But, I still ask why is there a push for RAW support on a PHONE? Do you think that even 1% of the users of smartphones would ever even use this feature? Adding feature after useless (or unused) feature just adds to the cost, complexity, and reliability of systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    I still ask why is there a push for RAW support on a PHONE?
    On my Sony RX100, the JPEG compressor is a bit agressive so I always take photos in RAW format and convert them to JPEGs afterwards in Lightroom. I could definitely see myself taking photos in RAW format on a phone if it had a good enough camera.

    Smartphones and tablets can already view RAW photos. Being able to take RAW photos is the next logical step.

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    Do you not know how many people would love RAW support on their phones. I own a camera with RAW and one without (excluding my phone). I can edit the RAW images so they're nicer than the ones taken on my second camera.

    RAW pictures are just that...raw....no filters, no after software editing anything quickly, no motion support or anything...just the raw unadulterated picture. With photoshop or aftereffects or any other image software you can make the pictures better without having to work through the gumpf.

    Also I think a high chunk of modelled pictures are done from raw also.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    But, I still ask why is there a push for RAW support on a PHONE? Do you think that even 1% of the users of smartphones would ever even use this feature? Adding feature after useless (or unused) feature just adds to the cost, complexity, and reliability of systems.
    Adding RAW support is not a complex feature. It is simply saving the data before it gets sent to the compression routines.

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    In a Blind "Taste Test" the iPhone 5s camera blows major competitors away

    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Do you not know how many people would love RAW support on their phones.
    The only people I have ever heard even requesting this are:

    1. Photographers (professional and hobbyists)
    2. Tech heads (i.e. The type of person who would be on Edugeek)
    3. Tech writers trying to get maximum page visits or promoting maximum bloat of features on every tech product. If tech writers had their way, a smartphone would be able to cook your dinner and drive your car for you.

    Other than that, the percentage of people who purchase smartphones and even know what RAW photos are would be in the low single digits if it were even 1%. Then there would be the people who would even care or use it, which would probably be a fraction of 1% of all users. In product development that is called an outlier use case.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    The only people I have ever heard even requesting this are:

    1. Photographers (professional and hobbyists)
    2. Tech heads (i.e. The type of person who would be on Edugeek)
    3. Tech writers trying to get maximum page visits or promoting maximum bloat of features on every tech product. If tech writers had their way, a smartphone would be able to cook your dinner and drive your car for you.

    Other than that, the percentage of people who purchase smartphones and even know what RAW photos are would be in the low single digits if it were even 1%. Then there would be the people who would even care or use it, which would probably be a fraction of 1% of all users. In product development that is called an outlier use case.
    There are a whole host of less useful, more complex features built in to phones. Adding a checkbox to an options menu for the camera is not going to break the R&D budget. It's a simple modification (so simple I don't see why it couldn't be done in a simple software update) that would please a lot of people (amateur/professional photographers alone are in to the hundreds of thousands in the UK alone). Not having the option to save RAW photo data needlessly disappoints a lot of people.

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    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Yes, 1%, but the 1% that will pay the extra for it and the 1% that probably has cred with others as a tech expert. Even the pretentious arty lot that have a sway in some coffee shop type social groups... wait, how does the iPhone not have RAW... have they not 'invented' it yet

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    Really can't see the issue against having a RAW option. The data is there, just save it rather than process it. Its no big deal.
    If you don't want it, don't enable it.

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