MIS Systems Thread, SIMS Behaviour Management Somewhat Flaky in Technical; Hi Philneal, and thanks for the confirmation.
I'll continue to follow this up through the CR path, since I find ...
9th August 2011, 01:17 PM #31
- Rep Power
Hi Philneal, and thanks for the confirmation.
I'll continue to follow this up through the CR path, since I find it difficult to understand why the product has been defined in this way. Detention records (that is, records that define when and where a detention is to take place) are administrative-type records (unless I misunderstand, which I regularly do!), and as such need to be placed within the control of admin. It is illogical to allow teaching staff to delete these records, or to set up their own records (which will be done only by mistake, and very rarely by intention). Furthermore, it is dangerous and wasteful to permit errors of this kind, particularly when they are caused by poor design.
To say that the product is working as designed simply outlines the flaws in the design - which should therefore be addressed.
Once again folks - many thanks for your help, very much appreciated.
9th August 2011, 01:56 PM #32
I am afraid I will be voting gainst such a CR. What about the scenario where Individuals and/or Departments hold their own Detentions as an interim or first measure, before the higher deterrent of Whole School Detention is imposed? Teachers themselves would maintain these sort of detentions! This serves as a good example of what I said above about CRs - they may suit one school but on the other hand they may not suit another! The functionality of the software in this case allows individual schools to use it to best suit the school's needs. Removing the right for Classroom Staff to edit Detentions would be a massive step backwards, as far as this school is concerned!
Last edited by Sivadam; 9th August 2011 at 02:01 PM.
9th August 2011, 02:08 PM #33
- Rep Power
Sorry to hear that you would vote against the CR, I'm not sure I understand why.
We have the scenario that you outline. The teachers tell me they have enough to do teaching, and expect the system to be run by admin staff (which I have to say I do agree with - their core business is teaching after all). The teaching staff here do not want to learn how to set up and maintain detentions. They don't want to have to administer these detentions and sort out the inherent niggly little problems. They simply want to put pupils into detention when it is deserved.
We're looking to roll out subject detentions, and "ad-hoc" detentions such as break and lunchtime in the coming academic year, and plan to handle it in a particular way to minimise the impact on the teaching staff.
Allow me to ask you to reconsider. Should my CR be acted upon, it would be a simple matter to allow your scenario, thus this would allow everyone to be happy.
10th August 2011, 08:51 AM #34
I agree that, in this case, it would be better if some of the basic setting up was done by an Admin person. Your original post did not refer to the original setting up of Detentions.
However, it is a rather simple matter for any member of staff to set up a detention and some schools (in particular Primary Schools) simply would not have the admin resources to be able to setup and administer all the Detentions that might be required. A school may well be running Individual, Department, Year Group and Whole School Detentions. To actually remove the rights of Teachers to setup and use Detentions themselves would be a step backwards. To have a blanket 'You cannot do this because you are a Teacher' is most unhelpful to those schools that might be successfully using the system! If your CR asked for the school to have the Option of switching off this functionality for Teachers then that would be another story. If it could be added to the permissions in System7 so that you could use your own cloned Class Teacher Group then that would resolve the issue for you.
CR No 1106-906831 already exists on SupportNet. I am the only one that has voted against it and do not mind divulging that information! To remove the Permission would not suit some schools! If the CR had been worded so that the school could choose to do this, rather than it being a blanket request, then I would have supported it!
When I first introduced the concept of Department Detentions in SIMS some of our HODs bit my hands off to get hold of that functionality. They could see that it would be far more useful and easier to operate than anything they were using at that time!
The myth that Teachers do not have time to do some things directly in SIMS needs, in some cases, to be destroyed. In many situations it is far easier and quicker for a Teacher to input the data directly into SIMS than it is to produce or complete a pro-forma for somebody else to do it for them.
(Wow! I can now paragraph my posts again from IE!)
Last edited by Sivadam; 10th August 2011 at 09:36 AM.
Reason: To add the comment that I can now paragraph posts again!
11th August 2011, 08:26 AM #35
- Rep Power
Many thanks for this. I'm very aware that, although I've spent a number of years in IT, I am new to the schools area and obviously don't have your experience. It looks like have arrived at a solution: Delete/Define Detentions needs to be set up as a separate permissions group, so that schools can control this as they see fit.
How do we make this happen ?
11th August 2011, 11:22 AM #36
We can't actually 'make it happen'. The best course of action is to raise a new Change Request on SupportNet. I would also publish it there as the SupportNet Forums are more appropriate for getting this sort of message over and for getting support for a CR (with apologies to all SIMS users who contribute here - I know there are now far more here than there were a couple of years ago!).
Your best hope is for it to appear on the plan for 2012/13 as it is now probably too late for 2011/12, though there are others with similar thoughts on SupportNet. Phil has already indicated that they may well be looking at the Conduct section of SIMS next year. If there are any consultation meetings re. this area then I would hope to get a place on one of them! However, there is no guarantee that such a request would ever get approved anyway. We are but two Users in nearly 22,000 schools - not to mention the views of the LAs and other Support Groups!
Last edited by Sivadam; 11th August 2011 at 11:24 AM.
11th August 2011, 01:18 PM #37
- Rep Power
You'll understand my frustration and disappointment I'm sure. You're saying that it is very unlikely that this can be fixed within the next 12 months, and more likely 2 year hence ?
Also my apologies. I've read back through this thread and my assumption was that you work for CAPITA - you clearly seem to know a lot about how they work.
It really would appear that I'm taking the wrong route here, please help me out. A problem exists within SIMS, where anyone can delete Detention records, without any trace. I assume that the same is true of Behaviour records. Clearly this must be fixed (is not a Bullying Log a statutory requirement - help me with this please). Furthermore, this data is required for various (sometime sensitive) situations, and must be reliable.
Change Requests appear to be to change functionality or add specific function, or in some other way request a change in design. Clearly I cannot know enough about SIMS to know which part of the design is at fault, so clearly the CR process isn't what I need.
So what do I do please ?
Phil - I don't know if you are still following this thread, but can you shed any light ?
Once again, many thanks all for your help in this.
12th August 2011, 11:23 AM #38
Sivadam working for Capita? That should make a few on here smile!
Originally Posted by DavePriorHLS
No! I am just a high-end SIMS User in a SIMS Partnership School which is also a SIMS UAT Associate School. As such I work closely with Capita in the software consultations and testing to try to help them develop their products in a positive manner.
I have now responded to your post on SupportNet, but we have a fundamental difference of opinion on this one. This just shows the difficulty that Capita have in meeting the 'needs' of all schools. We all have our different opinions even within individual schools themselves. With so many schools using SIMS it is simply impossible to suit all!
Last edited by Sivadam; 12th August 2011 at 01:34 PM.
27th August 2011, 12:50 PM #39
Behaviour records can be deleted and despite it being part of the design, many schools are not happy with that, or wouldn't be if they knew that that was the case. I'm pretty sure a straw poll of headteachers would show that even the chance of an accidental deletion would not be tolerated.
As with many areas, these design flaws need modifying to allow better data protection. An addition of an Edit (Own), rather than Edit (All) would be a welcome addition to many permission branches in System Manager. How much work that takes, we don't know...
I also don't like that it would need to go to CR for even the possibility of a change happening. I was told to create a CR because the independent version of SIMS doesn't have access to a pay related field that the 'state' version does. Absurd.
28th November 2011, 11:33 AM #40
Okay people, heads up.
There is a survey on Capita's supportnet website, i'm sure you're all members : SupportNet
It's all about behaviour and detentions. I thought i'd seen it or something similar before, but don't seem to have as i had no vote registered.
A recent news item pointed out it's still open until December 5th.
So log in, click on Support menu, then Surveys, and cast your vote. I would pick on 5/6 hot areas and give them the votes, rather than being sparing across the board.
It doesn't have the biggie about finer permissions on behaviour editing, but it does include GP12 which is regarding permissions on detentions. If that went through you'd hope the permission would also apply in general to behaviour. So go forth and sway the balance, then encourage a friend to do the same
28th November 2011, 02:42 PM #41
I may be being incredibly dense but I can't see any active surveys when I log in to Support Net. It's the first time I've tried but I only see the headings Mini Surveys, Feature Surveys and Markey Surveys and none of these headings have any current surveys.
Is that because of my access to Support Net? I signed up a few months ago and have not really used it very much (certainly not as much as I probably should...not enough hours in the day!)
28th November 2011, 08:38 PM #42
SupportNet, Support, Surveys!
I'll also be at the consultation meeting on 15th December.
Maybe I'll some of you there?
As for not having time for SupportNet - you could save yourself hours and hours of frustration when you have an issue with SIMS. There are some very experienced and knowledgeable users on SupportNet who are only too willing to share their expertise with you!
Last edited by Sivadam; 28th November 2011 at 08:42 PM.
29th November 2011, 05:14 AM #43
It's under Software Feature Surveys. The reason for the extension was apparently it was not visible to many, or there were problems.
Originally Posted by Ecclesbury
I'd contact support or email the guy managing it. It's in the news article from 25th November.
I can't see how your access would affect it, unless you are not a regular user, but from an LA or something. Either way, contact them and hopefully you can get your vote cast. They may even send you a spreadsheet to do it manually, if all else fails.
7th December 2011, 07:50 AM #44
Another chance to have your say:
Behaviour Polishing Software Consultancy Group MeetingsThank you to all of you who have taken part in the Behaviour survey, which is now closed. There are still places on the consultancy meetings on the 9th Dec in Reading and at the Minsthorpe meeting on the 15th December. If you are available on either of the days, would like to attend and contribute to the future development. Please contact me (email available on supportnet) for further details. Thanks again Geoff Perry Core Product Manager
7th December 2011, 08:00 AM #45
There are currently only a handful of us registered for the Minsthorpe meeting.
I am always amazed that SIMS users complain on here and on other forums about various parts of SIMS and yet, when they get the chance to contribute at a Consultancy meeting, they are conspicious by their absence!
If you really want to have your say and contribute to the discussions then apply for the meetings! Discuss the proposed changes! Make your views known directly to the Product Managers! It DOES work!
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