MIS Systems Thread, Behaviour Issues in Technical; I'm just putting this one out there to see if anyone has any opinions on how this works.
We did ...
12th June 2011, 07:34 PM #1
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I'm just putting this one out there to see if anyone has any opinions on how this works.
We did a survey of our teaching staff who are the ones who have to log behaviour incidents on a day to day basis. They indicate that the system is not fluid and very time consuming to log incidents and if you have a house system you are unable to register their house details without first having to go back out into student search and find which house they are in. Logging detentions is no less easy either in that in order to log a detention they have to hit an extra button in order to add a detention and then it is not that fluid in terms of booking said detention.
Are there any schools out there that believe that their teachers are happy with this module and are able to demonstrate this to me either via a remote link or by personal visit.
We are on the cusp of moving back to the IRIS behaviour management system as this was far more intuitive and indeed more automated that the current SIMS Behaviour. I submitted a change request to Capita based on the issues we were having but have heard nothing, are they worth their salt?
Anyone moved away from SIMS altogether, how did the transition go and was it costly?
12th June 2011, 08:10 PM #2
Houses are really important particualarly in the private sector and SIMS knows what house someone is in.
I'd be grateful for a little more explanation of the issue.
12th June 2011, 08:13 PM #3
We don't have a house system but we have used the behaviour and achievement bits of SIMS for several years now, ditching paper discipline slips in the process. It took staff a little while to get used to it but they all just get on with it now. Most of them seem to be able to enter both quite quickly and it is well used. Not sure if I can help with a demo as they just fill them in so not much to see.
It's fantastic for heads of year and pastoral leaders to be able to analyse the data. Form tutors also use it now Capita finally put yesterday as one of the date ranges for the home page. It means they can sit in registration and see what their form was up to the day before.
12th June 2011, 08:20 PM #4
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Certainly Phil, here are a few of the comments made recently:
- People keep moving whole detention slots, we need to be able to lock this down so that they can only add students onto a detention and not create a new one, move an existing one, or delete it entirely!
- The system for adding a student onto a detention slot (and we currently have 5 of them every day!) should be more fluent, or even automatic…
- Lesson Monitor has its own reporting menu – can Behaviour not have its own menu to report on, rather than having to go and find the report from the list of all the created reports, including the behaviour reports, rather than looking for a specific report.
- When you remove a location, type etc. from the drop down menus, this should no longer be available for selection. Some staff who have previously used a now obsolete type are still able to pick this old one up.
- Achievement and Behaviour should be displayed as a student field within Assessment Manager, as an additional student field
- We need to be able to highlight different detention types in different colours – i.e. – ‘C3 – Detention’ in red, ‘C4 – Detention’ in blue
- Teaching Staff are finding that the detentions systems is so ineffective that they are not bothering to add them to the database which causes problems in tackling poor behaviour.
- The system for allocating behaviour rewards is also poor and not intuitive. It should be a simple process for staff to allocate these.
Just a few of the comments we received.
In terms of the house issue, when a teacher begins to log a behaviour incident part of that process is to add in the student's house. If the teacher does not know this prior to starting the logging of the incident there is no way for them to obtain the information other than to either log into another session or to close down the incident and enter it again.
This is resulting in them not logging incidents due to the time taken to log each one.
12th June 2011, 08:35 PM #5
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Looking through the incident process again since the last update it would appear that the house system has been added as an option when selecting the detention. Phil I am a SIMS advocate and have had no problems with it in the past. My concerns are raised when my customers the users of the product are providing me with a list of information that tells me that they are disatisfied with any part of it. I'm sure as a SIMS/Capita representative on this forum that you will understand this.
I am wanting to keep it as we SIMS Learning Gateway along with the SIMS package so have a vested interested in retaining the SIMS Behaviour. The problem is that they have experience IRIS and its reporting and analysis are superior to this particular SIMS module. This is understandable as this is the only focus IRIS have whereas Capita SIMS have a complete MIS to consider.
12th June 2011, 08:35 PM #6
ctbjs - thanks. I'll get someone to look at this and get back to you.
13th June 2011, 05:51 AM #7
The benefits are great but usability does stink. We have no end of problems because it's simply too fiddly. The LM7 right click function is great but we want them to go in and add detail later and they won't bother. Detentions are a pain.
It works and we make it work but users do not like it.
The biggest problem by far is that there is no auditing and anyone can delete anything. It drastically needs this to be looked at @PhilNeal pls pls.
14th June 2011, 08:16 PM #8
ctbjs - I spoke to one of our product managers this evening but it was late and I don't think we've understood all of the issues yet.
In LM I'm sure you know that it is possible to bulk assign behaviour or achievement incidents. Right click against pupils for recording simple things really quickly or shift click against pupils and then press the buttons on the right for a more comprehensive form. You don't need to record house at all.
Is the problem you want to run a house detention?
I'll pursue a little more. If you'd like to PM me I can get the product manager to talk to you.
21st June 2011, 01:01 PM #9
Originally Posted by ctbjs
With respect, I think you're asking the wrong question here. I'm sure there are plenty of schools out there who are perfectly happy with SIMS behaviour manager, either because they don't know any different or because they have very simple basic requirements. I think the pertinent question is 'are there any schools that have tried both IRIS and SIMS and who think SIMS is better?'.
21st June 2011, 01:18 PM #10
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I think you are partially right there Ed. Many schools will never have used IRIS and only had SIMS to work with. My point was really that having used both and teachers having moved back from IRIS to SIMS around a year ago they are struggling to get to grips with what they consider it to be "laborious, time consuming and complicated for booking detentions", "easy to book an incident" and "reasonably good for analysis". Comments in quotes are from teaching staff.
Personally I don't see the difference between the two in terms of performance as there are plus and minus for both. From my perspective as a SIMS Learning Gateway user would prefer to keep it in house with SIMS. Unfortunately we are in a position of having to consider the majority that use SIMS Behaviour for logging incidents and detentions.
I see you are from Rochdale, I didn't know IRIS employees lived so close? I live in Littleborough so a passing interest.
21st June 2011, 01:35 PM #11
Sorry Chris I thought you knew who I was; for the avoidance of any doubt among other forum members, IRIS is my company so clearly I have a vested interest in this discussion; as indeed does Phil.
I full appreciate the desire of schools to 'keep everything under one roof'. There are lots of advantages in doing so; single login, one database to maintain etc. Unfortunately, MIS modules will always be less advanced that single purpose, dedicated applications. So you have a trade off between functionality and convenience. For many schools, the MIS module will be perfectly adequate. For those schools with very particular or complex needs, like detailed analysis or complicated detention systems, a more bespoke solution is required.
Out of interest, we have three other schools around our area returning to IRIS in September.
21st June 2011, 01:51 PM #12
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I agree with your last post completely and it is probably due to the latter that we are considering the move back to IRIS ourselves. Many of our teaching staff and in particular Senior Management prefer the more detailed analysis provided by IRIS.
Somebody summed SIMS Behaviour vs IRIS for me the other day. You guys specialise in Behaviour Managment/Analysis whereas SIMS Behaviour is but a container on a cargo ship. To be fair to SIMS like you say, for the basic use it works 'ok'
I've got one of your guys looking at single sign-on for us through SharePoint at the moment which will also be a deciding factor for us.
21st June 2011, 01:58 PM #13
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Originally Posted by PhilNeal
There are a couple of issues I see with logging behaviour through LM. One is that not all users use LM (ie incident occuring outside of a classroom environment). A second is that when you are in LM you have two separate boxes that refer to behaviour "Behaviour" itself and "Behaviour Management". Behaviour provides the appropriate details for teaching staff in a lesson to be able to submit an incident. The Behaviour Management link allows them to raise an incident but does not have anywhere in the boxes to enter a house so therefore a staff member has to come out of this box (ie close it) find the house and then start again.
Further on from this when they are booking a detention, if a student is already in detention on that day they have to click next to choose the next one, and if the individual is a persisitent behaviour problem or has a really bad day in terms of detention submissions could be waiting a week before the detention is served and the impact lost. This is the element where teachers become really frustrated as they have to click next so many times they give up after a while and hand it to pastoral who are then burdoned with adding them manually via the other method which doesn't display a house.
I don't think there is much wrong with the system itself but just needs tidying up in terms of the number of hops they have to do to register a detention.
22nd June 2011, 07:16 AM #14
Since we're comparing the products, i'd like to ask a few things.
In IRIS is it possible to award points to a HOUSE - negative or positive? This is something we want to do, for team events or class based points, especially in the primary school. As a workaround we are looking at creating a dummy guest student for each house for this purpose.
Also, what is the data integrity / access control like in IRIS? Can Teacher Alice easily see Teacher Bob's incidents? What edit rights do they have and is there any kind of hierarchy?
22nd June 2011, 08:51 AM #15
when you say award point to a house, you mean just add points to the house total without them being awarded to an individual? That's no problem, there's a couple of ways of doing that. But the way it normally works is that when a reward is given to a pupil, a specified number of points is added to the individual pupil total. These totals can be tallied by individual, class group, year group or house group on the fly using pre-defined date ranges (today, yesterday, this week, last week etc) as well as custom date ranges.
Pupils can also accumulate negative points in the same way.
As for access control, you can have a range of permissions and restrictions. You can restrict access to the analysis tools and selected sanctions. Teachers cannot see other teacher's entries (unless you want them to) but they can see individual pupil behaviour histories.
As for edit rights, all teachers have a 'grace period' of 10 mins in which they can edit or delete their own entries. After that everything is locked, only staff with the correct permissions can edit or delete entries. Staff can, however, ADD comments and info to incidents which have already been logged.
Hope that helps.
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