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MIS Systems Thread, Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights' in Technical; Originally Posted by matt40k I think it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario. Or alternatively ...
  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    I think it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.
    Or alternatively a "win, win" scenario for the more cynically minded!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilNeal View Post

    There are a number of reasons why we require an academy to purchase SIMS in its own right:
    [LIST=1][*]We have had to make extensive changes to the software both in finance and originally the statutory returns. These changes have to be funded by the academy sector.
    This bit intrigues me!

    If the school doesn’t use FMS and uses Sage, there are very little changes to SIMS.

    The school changes the DfE code and that’s pretty much it for new Academies.

    Primary to Academy Quote below:

    Total 21,990.00

    On a slightly different note: Somebody (My guess a MIS/LP supplier) is collecting some interesting information from organisations.

    Anyone had one of these recently?

    I wish to make a request under the Freedom of Information act for the following information.

    1. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Management Information System (MIS) in use at your schools? By School MIS I mean products such as Capita SIMS, Serco CMIS, RM Integris, Pearson E1, Bromcom and Walton Samuel. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

    2. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Pupil Management Information System used in the authority? By Authority MIS I mean products such as Capita One and Tribal Synergy. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

    3. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Learning Platform (LP) in use at your schools? By School LP I mean products such as Moodle, Frog, and Fronter. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

    Will someone finally challenge the Capita LA annual maintenance contract as a being a new contract that should have gone through a full procurement and try to get it set aside?

  3. #48

    vikpaw's Avatar
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    That's crazy, someone who knows a little is pushing a lot.
    Does listing who is responsible for your MIS fall under freedom of information act? including email / phone number?
    That's badly written too, or was there a typo?
    It's pretty forthright, I've seen better from data harvesters and call centres.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikpaw View Post
    That's crazy, someone who knows a little is pushing a lot.
    Does listing who is responsible for your MIS fall under freedom of information act? including email / phone number?
    That's badly written too, or was there a typo?
    It's pretty forthright, I've seen better from data harvesters and call centres.
    Apparently it all falls under FOI

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    Commercial responsibility for a learning platform? That doesn't fall under FOI as far as I'm aware.

  6. #51

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    Does providing that info not breach data protection?

    Ben

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by plexer View Post
    Does providing that info not breach data protection?

    Ben
    No, why would it? You're not giving out their personal details, you're giving out business details.

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    The Act gives a right of access to information that is recorded in any form at the time of the request.

    12.
    The Code provides guidance on good practice for public authorities in connection with the discharge of their functions under Part I of the Act. The main features of Part I Freedom of Information Act 2000 are:

    general rights of access in relation to recorded information held by public authorities, subject to certain conditions and exemptions;

    If you hold the information you pretty much have to disclose it - exemptions are usally Union related for public bodies
    Last edited by Banjo; 30th March 2011 at 04:39 PM.

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    Common practice is to give out the role name, rather than the person's name. If someone wants to have a complete list of the names of each person involved then they have to ring up the establishment and ask for the name of the post holder. This helps to prevent certain companies generating a list of details of people which can then be sold to spam folk, and still allowing control of personal / professional data by the individual role holder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, why would it? You're not giving out their personal details, you're giving out business details.
    Data is data, whether personal or professional. it should only be transferred or used where there is a legal and consensual right to do so. If you transfer a name to someone, even if it is about their professional capacity, then you are transferring dat. The recipient of that data should meet your own DP policy or have an agreement. I know it is a bit of sophistry, but FoI requests such as this tend to generated by those seeking to name and shame, or those seeking to generate a contact list ... and you have no control over who then uses that contact list. It can be easily sold on to others without your permission ...

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Data is data, whether personal or professional. it should only be transferred or used where there is a legal and consensual right to do so. If you transfer a name to someone, even if it is about their professional capacity, then you are transferring dat. The recipient of that data should meet your own DP policy or have an agreement. I know it is a bit of sophistry, but FoI requests such as this tend to generated by those seeking to name and shame, or those seeking to generate a contact list ... and you have no control over who then uses that contact list. It can be easily sold on to others without your permission ...
    To be honest, all irrelevant, as the FoI does not provide any exceptions for any of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Common practice is to give out the role name, rather than the person's name. If someone wants to have a complete list of the names of each person involved then they have to ring up the establishment and ask for the name of the post holder. This helps to prevent certain companies generating a list of details of people which can then be sold to spam folk, and still allowing control of personal / professional data by the individual role holder.
    If the FoI request asks for names, then you legally have to give out names. I can't see playing games like you say being acceptable.
    Last edited by localzuk; 31st March 2011 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    To be honest, all irrelevant, as the FoI does not provide any exceptions for any of that.

    If the FoI request asks for names, then you legally have to give out names. I can't see playing games like you say being acceptable.
    FoI and DPA go hand-in-hand ... one cannot be used to breach the other. All acts of law require you to adhere to them except where they put you in direct breaches of other acts of law. At that point you have to base actions on case law from where it is challenged or reasonable guidance as produced by official bodies. This is why you get into murky waters about using physical force for self-defence ... And so sparks a lengthy discussion again about whether laws actually work when you have contradicting information (and should be another thread)

    If you have had an FoI request you should always consider DPA.

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    I was going to say, we store data on students, no-one can just send in a request for this info can they.

    Back to the original request:

    It can't have come anonymously, presumably a school can query who is making the request, and possibly the purpose...?
    A school can charge a reasonable amount to put the data together for the requester..?
    I would want to ask for clarification of the request 'office in charge of commercial responsibility...' it's a bit of a mouthful. Would you say it's the MIS manager or is the 'office in charge' the head / board of governors...?
    Query 2 you can just say you don't know and refer them to the LA, right?

  14. #59

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    An FoI request simply has to have the question, the applicant's name and a return address (be that email or physical).

    You have no right to know the purpose of the request. A fee can be charged I believe, but at a cost of 25 per hour for the work. So, compiling a list of staff names should not even take an hour - and someone asking for that information being told their is a fee involved might be able to complain to the ICO about it.

    Clarifications are fine though.

    And passing this to the LEA would lead to them telling you to take a leap as it is not their responsibility to answer FoI requests for a school.

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    I didn't mean bounce the whole request to LA i meant specifically query #2:

    2. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Pupil Management Information System used in the authority?
    I still don't understand the way the questions are phrased. Why would the school have someone responsible for the LA MIS system? Unless they mean, who makes sure data is fed back to their system correctly.

    Like i said, it would be easier to call up and ask who is the database manager please, and who handles the VLE. Social engineering seems a much easier approach. Has anyone else had this request?

    I'd be interested to know if someone really is going to challenge these charges / renewal processes.

    I would start the paperwork cost starting at when i first had to post on Edugeek, until i got a definitive answer just like a lawyer would. At the least you can charge for a minimum of one hour. At least it might make the person think twice.

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