MIS Systems Thread, Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights' in Technical; I think 'in breach' would be a bit strong a term to use, maybe 'not as friendly with competitors needing ...
8th June 2011, 02:20 PM #166
I think 'in breach' would be a bit strong a term to use, maybe 'not as friendly with competitors needing access as they could be', which they have now resolved.
Their Business Objects API information could do with a bit of work though, as it is a bit of a monster!
9th June 2011, 10:08 AM #167
Breaches, £75 million and guilty vs innocent!
Creese, need to have a look at Becta Report 2010 - MIS Value for Money:
Originally Posted by creese
Breach: There are plenty!!!
Key one is: Annual maintenance contracts that are more than ‘de minimis’ are in breach of EU/UK procurement laws. 'De minimis' means only bug fixes should have been covered in the annual maintenance contracts. Para 1.22 page 5.
Extra charges LAs and schools paid were illegal and exceeds £75 million over the period that went on. Please see annual cost just for schools in England is £550 million over 5 years para 1.4 page 3. 80% is pocketed by the dominant supplier. This amounted funding dominant suppliers developments before being delivered and at expense and disadvantage of all other suppliers. What is worse is that schools perceived as if they were receiving these product developments ‘free of charge’ and when in fact they ‘pre-paid’ in breach of EU/UK Laws.
To avoid such breach, Kent County Council in April thsi year cancelled their annual maintenance contracts with the dominant supplier from 1st of April 2012 so to be in compliant to EU/UK procurements laws. Link: Kent Trust Web: Kent County Council
As to OFT and Competition laws, in this case ie the annual charges including 'product development', amounts to "tying in"/bundling. This is the flip side of the same breach but on supplier account!
As you will know DfE is setting up National Framework OJEU Tender for MIS. Link:
Information Management and Learning Services framework - The Department for Education
In DfE statement, the reference to Becta Report 2010 is clear indication how serious breaches has been over the past 15 years!
I hope the above helps to clarify breaches, £75 million and guilty vs innocent!
Last edited by BromcomPublicRelations; 9th June 2011 at 10:13 AM.
Reason: typo/further clarification
2 Thanks to BromcomPublicRelations:
CyberNerd (9th June 2011), nephilim (9th June 2011)
9th June 2011, 10:15 AM #168
@BromcomPublicRelations So was the SWC a bug or a new feature? By your logic it was a chargable new feature. SOLUS3 - support new access polices (ie end users don't have "admin" rights like Win98), again, bug or new feature?
Don't get me wrong, a nice discount on the Capita licensing would be great, assuming it comes out of the right peoples pocket.
9th June 2011, 10:28 AM #169
How would you classify Discover?
Originally Posted by matt40k
9th June 2011, 10:33 AM #170
Originally Posted by vikpaw
9th June 2011, 10:51 AM #171
I can't even find Discover. I spotted something called Tracking grids in the Assessment menu?
9th June 2011, 10:51 AM #172
Discover hasn't been released yet as far as I know!
9th June 2011, 10:52 AM #173
It certainly has.
Originally Posted by localzuk
If you are an LA School then you should contact them to release the licence to you!
It was packaged with the Spring Release (actually it came a week or so later!) after a few of us tested it on the Autumn Release!
Last edited by Sivadam; 9th June 2011 at 11:05 AM.
9th June 2011, 10:53 AM #174
Discover is a separate product, licenced and installed completly separately from SIMS. I think it is released down here - at least some schools are using it I think. They may be partner or LA partners though.
Thanks to TheScarfedOne from:
9th June 2011, 11:02 AM #175
Has nobody noticed the increasing number of Discover prefixed threads on SupportNet, it's defo out and available, wasn't it a week or so after the Spring release.
Not had time to test it out yet.
Only mentioned it in reference to the 'free' software/updates that was referred to.
9th June 2011, 11:04 AM #176
Ah, ok. We're no longer an LA licensed school, currently waiting on the contract from Capita to get us signed up as an academy!
9th June 2011, 11:14 AM #177
80% of school IT systems are bought illegally
A good question!
Originally Posted by matt40k
Answer: Cost of all Statutory Changes should have been met centrally since April 2008. This was a strong recommendation in Becta Report 2005 MIS VfM so to bring transparancy to the cost and fairer sharing of the burden put onto MIS suppliers by teh government. For this, DfE (then DCSF) formed IMPS Group under Memorandum of Understanding, signed by all 6 or so MIS suppliers and DfE in September 2007. A spanner was thrown in around March 2009 and scheme was put on halt. This is being looked into at present by various parties and hopefully consider reinstating the scheme. Probably as part of the DfE Framework OJEU Tender for MIS.
1. Becta Report 2010 para 8.10 page 32: Total cost of Statutory Changes across all suppliers is circa £2.2m in a year - this is circa 30p per student.
2. A local authority such as Kent CC has been paying circa £600,000 per annum in annual charges to the dominant supplier.
3. The cost of Statutory Changes based on 30p per student for Kent CC would come under £70,000 per annum!
4. You can now see where remaining circa £530,000 per annum is going! Product development by the dominant supplier that is in breach of EU/UK procurement and competition laws. Hence: 80% of school IT systems are bought illegally - News - TES Connect
9th June 2011, 02:49 PM #178
What about support for new hardware\software, such as Windows 7, is that included in the 30p per student cost, or is that another slice? Or should this be an "upgrade" - so will we have to start saving for "SIMS .net for Windows 8", if this is the case then surely the Microsoft Educational agreement would be in a similar boat? Also what would you class, for example, the quick search from the homepage? I think it's a improvement, not a bug fix, but I don't think I should pay any extra for it. Are you directly complaining about them giving Discover out for free, or stuff like InTouch, SLG etc, I'm sure Capita wouldn't invest money into it if it wasn't making money.
Also how much for support - ie I have a bug in my database and you\someone needs to create a site specfic patch?
@vikpaw - it's a bug fix, resolve PICNIC issues with assessment
PS: Did I read that right, if Kent CC doesn't sort it out, schools will be forced to go direct to Capita (or such) by 1 April 2012, otherwise they won't have support, won't be able to submit a census return come Jan 2013 - which funding is based on - because they won't have the updated version that includes the stat changes. Good luck Kent!! I guess they want the poor mans SIMS. It does AM\PM registers, P7 and SC\SWC returns and that's about it.
9th June 2011, 02:54 PM #179
30p per student cost? You trying to say that our school would pay £200 a year maintenance? Err... no.
And the MS license agreement is not a maintenance agreement.
Also, you've missed the point - you wouldn't be paying extra, according to the complaint, you've already paid for it, before it was produced. So, what the complaint said was that customers should pay less maintenance, and then pay if they want new features, rather than having new features being leveraged into the produce pre-paid by the maintenance cost. ie. what would be classified as anti-competitive behaviour, as they're taking advantage of their monopoly position to enter new areas.
9th June 2011, 03:00 PM #180
You missed my point, what IS a new feature that you should pay for and what should be included? Pretty sure if it's a new feature ie that could be classed as anti-competitive behaviour, Capita would be charging extra for it. All the new "free" features are normally requested\discussed heavy with customers before hand. Perhaps all changes, other then stat changes should include a call ref or CR no on the release notes?
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