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MIS Systems Thread, Error Messages !! in Technical; Just for the record: training refers to the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competancies as a result of the teaching ...
  1. #61

    creese's Avatar
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    Just for the record:

    training refers to the acquisition of knowledge, skills, and competancies as a result of the teaching of vocational or practical skills and knowledge that relate to specific useful competencies.

    A far cry from being shown or told how to do things.

    Edit: accorfding to your definition, as soon as you got the monkey's hand out of coconut, you could train it to use Sims.
    Last edited by creese; 29th July 2010 at 03:13 PM.

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    teejay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    I have contact with many other authorities and a lot of them are in the same boat as us. Out of 130 primary phase schools there are a small handful of competant user of Sims. In 20+ secondaries the techs rarely touch Sims, we even upgrade for them.
    Yeah, it surprises me when I speak to other secondary NM's how few have any dealings with SIMS, including the upgrades. When I started here, on my first day the deputy head who dealt with SIMS just dumped it all on me, 'hear ya go, that's for you to support now, oh and there's an upgrade that needs doing (which was the move from SIMS to SIMS.net, joyous)'.

  3. #63

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    Yeah, it surprises me when I speak to other secondary NM's how few have any dealings with SIMS, including the upgrades. When I started here, on my first day the deputy head who dealt with SIMS just dumped it all on me, 'hear ya go, that's for you to support now, oh and there's an upgrade that needs doing (which was the move from SIMS to SIMS.net, joyous)'.
    The only work I did with old Sims in a seondary was carry out backups or very detailed instruction fixes from the 2 lady helpdesk at the LA. Or should I say training from the ladies?

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    I have contact with many other authorities and a lot of them are in the same boat as us. Out of 130 primary phase schools there are a small handful of competant user of Sims. In 20+ secondaries the techs rarely touch Sims, we even upgrade for them.

    There is training and there is training, as far as i am concerned we are qualified, in several ways to train in Sims. Any training from anyone is not an option, it would be like my elder broter teaching me to drive, when that training inclueded jumping red lights and putting your foot down at zebra crossing. I don't want users being taught bad habit and wrong ways of doing thing, what is the point of that? I think that is a silly point you are making When you tell them which one, they will have been trained 'When you tell them which one, they will have been trained'. That would mean I had been trained in major surgery, I am medically trained, but would you want me fitting a pacemaker for you? I've seen it done, 1st hand.
    How do the not so competent schools get anything done? Who do they go to for help? It might be trickle training but it is there. It's a far from ideal situation but you obviously have experience of it. Maybe not. Are you saying no-one tells these people what to do, and they get help from nowhere? They don't ask a colleague? They must really hate SIMS if they are living in a closed box forced to use a system they can't. Imagine if they started posting on here, Sivadam would have a heart attack.

    Talking of hearts, it's funny you mention it.

    If someone phones you up with a tech support question and you tell them the solution be it, press ESC, click File -> Save, or other, then yes they have been trained. In much the same was as you would do it in a classroom. It's a shame you can't be there but it's a reality. Capita rely on phone support like this all the time.

    Just seeing a pacemaker being fitted does not qualify you to do surgery, besides, you might remove my heart and not put another one back in, then i'd be off on the yellow brick road. The solutions provided on SupportNet are a lot less complex and Capita will continue to support the school if they follow the procedures.

  5. #65

    creese's Avatar
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    @vikpaw

    They manage to varied degrees is the answer, or we have to do it for them.

    Who are these colleagues you speak of? We have whole schools where no one knows what is going on. Those do the very basics in Sims. Ask then to stray from the norm and they are stuck. Give them an instruction sheet they may follow it, that is NOT training, as much and as loud as you say it is.

    At least I'm 'trained' enough about pacemakers to know you don't remove a heart, wires are threaded from the shoulder area into the heart with the main device fitted in a pocket near the clavicle. As you are concious whenit happens you would know if the heart was removed. Now you are trained in heart surgery. The bill is in the post.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    @vikpaw

    They manage to varied degrees is the answer, or we have to do it for them.

    Who are these colleagues you speak of? We have whole schools where no one knows what is going on. Those do the very basics in Sims. Ask then to stray from the norm and they are stuck. Give them an instruction sheet they may follow it, that is NOT training, as much and as loud as you say it is.

    At least I'm 'trained' enough about pacemakers to know you don't remove a heart, wires are threaded from the shoulder area into the heart with the main device fitted in a pocket near the clavicle. As you are concious whenit happens you would know if the heart was removed. Now you are trained in heart surgery. The bill is in the post.
    Well, i pity you. (for having to deal with those schools).

    From my point of you, if someone teaches themselves something, they are self-training. If someone shows you how to do something then that's training, you could class it as self-training, because you asked someone and hopefully broadened your own understanding, or just training.

    Knowledge was acquired as per the definition, but there's no need to get into semantics. I think you are putting the writers of training manuals out of business, but i think the side bar on training has run it's length.

    If i show someone, tell someone, write it down, email it, phone it, broadcast it on the tannoy, that they need to press print screen, then open word and paste (using any of 4 methods), they will then know what to do. They will probably get it wrong, or forget, and i'll keep telling them, and incorporate it when i get the chance to do formalised training sessions, but, some people will learn eventually. maybe not the people you deal with but for me and i'm sure at least someone else out there...

    It will get the error message recorded. i've even told someone to photo the screen next time they get a particular error, they are slowly learning that it helps them in the long run. Once it's recorded we can crack on with the issue of getting it solved.

    Could the messages be more useful, yes they could, in my opinion, if you don't think so, then you are in a happy world where the error messages are fine, but the people never learn. On my planet, the error messages could be better, and things could be done better, but at least the people are learning to deal with what they have and it works for me.

    I still wouldn't trust you with my chest open - you seem too friendly with Sivadam

  7. #67

    creese's Avatar
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    The last thing on earth I need is pity, I certainly wouldn't ask for it. I do my job, as do the rest of the team, and enjoy it (mostly). Most of the time we know what the error is before they start on the actual message.

    Finally on this point training is gaining knowledge not being shown how to do something many times. Training is empowering not leading. You could sit a monkey at a PC and get him to press keys in a ceratin order but you ain't training him to spell.

    I have no Idea if I have have ever met sivadam, we do share similar views at times. I'm sure neither of us wish you harm. If you have finished with the Voodoo Doll, Sivadam, can I have it next please. :-)
    Last edited by creese; 29th July 2010 at 04:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    Finally on this point training is gaining knowledge not being shown how to do something many times. Training is empowering not leading. You could sit a monkey at a PC and get him to press keys in a ceratin order but you ain't training him to spell.

    I have no Idea if I have have ever met sivadam, we do share similar views at times. I'm sure neither of us wish you harm. If you have finished with the Voodoo Doll, Sivadam, can I have it next please. :-)
    What if the monkey acquires the knowledge that pressing keys in a certain order earns them a banana?
    I don't think we will ever agree on this. When i show someone how to do something, and they achieve to do it, i believe they have gained knowledge. I empower my users to use print screen, and we have empowered them to use the Windows Problem Recorder. If when you show people how to do something and they don't learn, you would probably say they weren't trained, i would say they were trained but need practise, or need more training. Luckily my monkeys learn when i show them things, no bananas needed.

    I know you're harmless, i was kidding. Some people take things too seriously. I just wish people would focus on the problem solving rather than the side issues. It's too easy to get carried away online, most people wouldn't dream of wasting days on petty discussions if they were in a face-to-face environment.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikpaw View Post
    most people wouldn't dream of wasting days on petty discussions if they were in a face-to-face environment.
    Of course, but that's one of the two things that the Internet is for

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajbritton View Post
    Of course, but that's one of the two things that the Internet is for
    The internet is only for 1 thing (haven't you seen Avenue Q?!)
    Everything else is just a waste of time, but if someone is looking for help in a forum, it's handy if things stay on topic. At least if that's the way the management want it.

  11. #71

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikpaw View Post
    What if the monkey acquires the knowledge that pressing keys in a certain order earns them a banana?
    I don't think we will ever agree on this. When i show someone how to do something, and they achieve to do it, i believe they have gained knowledge. I empower my users to use print screen, and we have empowered them to use the Windows Problem Recorder. If when you show people how to do something and they don't learn, you would probably say they weren't trained, i would say they were trained but need practise, or need more training. Luckily my monkeys learn when i show them things, no bananas needed.

    I know you're harmless, i was kidding. Some people take things too seriously. I just wish people would focus on the problem solving rather than the side issues. It's too easy to get carried away online, most people wouldn't dream of wasting days on petty discussions if they were in a face-to-face environment.
    Well you stick with your Vikpawedia verson of the word, the rest of us will use the proper English definition. As you have managed to agree, if they remember what instruction you gave, great. But most of the time they are just following your instructions, 1, 2, 3. because A. the fault may never occur again B. they are not interested in problems with the program only getting me to fix it. With VNC/RDP 99.9% of the time we fix it from good knowledge of what errors are current. Training is training, instruction is instruction, it's why they made up 2 words.

    I thecase of this thread no one is seeking a solution to a proble but its a 'commentary on the wording of the original request for help and the wording of SIMS error' messages.

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    vikpaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    Well you stick with your Vikpawedia verson of the word, the rest of us will use the proper English definition. As you have managed to agree, if they remember what instruction you gave, great. But most of the time they are just following your instructions, 1, 2, 3. because A. the fault may never occur again B. they are not interested in problems with the program only getting me to fix it. With VNC/RDP 99.9% of the time we fix it from good knowledge of what errors are current. Training is training, instruction is instruction, it's why they made up 2 words.

    I thecase of this thread no one is seeking a solution to a proble but its a 'commentary on the wording of the original request for help and the wording of SIMS error' messages.
    So how do you do your training? Surely it includes some instruction(s) as part of the process of learning? Vikpawedia doesn't have strict requirements: simple tasks that need little training can consist of a single instruction.

    I would like it if all instructions were remembered, but if they don't they are repeated the next time, and eventually they learn. Usually with simple things they don't need telling often.

    This came about from teaching people how to report problems properly, it doesn't matter what the problem is, it could be different everytime, if we want a printscreen of an error, i instruct them how to do it. They then either know how to do it next time, or we tell them again, usually if it's a new skill to them, they can see where they could use it for other tasks. On my planet they learn, but the support environment is clearly different in-school compared to county level.

  13. #73

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikpaw View Post
    So how do you do your training? Surely it includes some instruction(s) as part of the process of learning? Vikpawedia doesn't have strict requirements: simple tasks that need little training can consist of a single instruction.

    I would like it if all instructions were remembered, but if they don't they are repeated the next time, and eventually they learn. Usually with simple things they don't need telling often.

    This came about from teaching people how to report problems properly, it doesn't matter what the problem is, it could be different everytime, if we want a printscreen of an error, i instruct them how to do it. They then either know how to do it next time, or we tell them again, usually if it's a new skill to them, they can see where they could use it for other tasks. On my planet they learn, but the support environment is clearly different in-school compared to county level.
    'Training a handful of schools is very different from 'supporting' over 150. I wish we had time to train as we support but there are not enough hours in the day/week/year. We train in classroom and if you have been paying attention to my training, they do not come along in the numbers we would hope, you already know why that is.

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    All this from reason 0 eh? Amazing.

    Reason 0 means it can't connect. Nothing more, nothing less. Be nice if is stated Unable to connect, but what are you going to do. I can't image Capita's KB will include everything, still I laugh if it did, please check your patch cable is plugged into the wall socket, unless...

    I'm not even going to get started on the whole correct training and support thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    All this from reason 0 eh? Amazing.

    Reason 0 means it can't connect. Nothing more, nothing less. Be nice if is stated Unable to connect, but what are you going to do. I can't image Capita's KB will include everything, still I laugh if it did, please check your patch cable is plugged into the wall socket, unless...

    I'm not even going to get started on the whole correct training and support thing.
    Ah, go on ! :-)

    Reason 0, I'm not sure it can tell you more, simple. 'Have you got an S drive? Is the SQL engine running. Except in a very small percentage of occasions, that's it fixed.

    Reason 0 A/PL your patch lead is unplugged ain't gonna happen. Microsoft gave me a 'Not all network drives are available' at home today. It would have helped if it has said 'You Wally, you set the time to switch off the NAS when you are 'normally' at work, you're on leave' Instead I had to you my Sherlock like deduction skills.

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