+ Post New Thread
Page 17 of 21 FirstFirst ... 7131415161718192021 LastLast
Results 241 to 255 of 305
MIS Systems Thread, School MIS Systems in Technical; Originally Posted by PiqueABoo But that's all vertical isn't it? Recall I said "Yet again for horizontal within a school.." ...
  1. #241
    penfold_99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    East Sussex
    Posts
    1,003
    Thank Post
    60
    Thanked 167 Times in 119 Posts
    Rep Power
    69
    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    But that's all vertical isn't it? Recall I said "Yet again for horizontal within a school.."
    My hands are currently tied as i could give you an example but it would be seen as advertising.

  2. #242

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Surburbia
    Posts
    2,178
    Thank Post
    74
    Thanked 307 Times in 243 Posts
    Rep Power
    116
    PM me then, I'm on a genuine quest for enlightenment.

  3. #243
    EdWhittaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Rochdale
    Posts
    114
    Thank Post
    6
    Thanked 20 Times in 17 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    I'm on a genuine quest for enlightenment.
    Ah, Grasshopper, to achieve true enlightenment, understanding and tranquillity you must first study the ways of the Shaolin monk ...

  4. #244

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hants
    Posts
    54
    Thank Post
    5
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Then why are you talking about a 'centralised' solution which cannot be tailored to individual needs? Monolithic systems are not flexible.

    You can't have it both ways - flexible education with flexible systems to back that up or a rigid 'everyone gets treated the same' with rigid pre-determined systems.
    My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components! It's then very much down to individual schools to choose the components they want to use and also NOT to be burdened with loads of things they never use (How much of SIMS does the average Primary school actually use .... 10%!)

    This way education can be flexible to suit individual schools, needs, environments etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    I agree with you that there is a difference between somebody defending their POV and attacking, but having frequented these forums for nearly a year now, I would say that 90% of Sivadam's posts are to shoot people down who have anything bad to say about SIMS, and 10% are actually productive/helpful, and it's becoming a standing joke to regulars. That is my opinion.
    Difficult to disagree with this. The forum posts speak for themselves. I have had the presumption to criticise Capita on a few occasions and EVERY time I do, there is one person who can be guaranteed to jump down my throat. Seems a bit of a personal mission to me.

    On topic - Interoperability absolutely HAS to happen with MIS and the players should be forced (by law if necessary) to co-operate (although they might appear to be on-side with SIF, it is IMHO a bit of smoke and mirrors and not proper engagement on the part of some!)
    Last edited by marshharrier; 13th November 2010 at 10:34 AM.

  5. 3 Thanks to marshharrier:

    GREED (13th November 2010), LosOjos (15th November 2010), vikpaw (5th December 2010)

  6. #245
    GeeHubb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    182
    Thank Post
    17
    Thanked 37 Times in 32 Posts
    Rep Power
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by marshharrier View Post
    My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components!
    Are you really suggesting that you would trust this (or any) government to build a school's MIS? When you say 'the government' precisely who in the government are you expecting to be tasked with the proposal? This would be the same government that are proposing to share aircraft carriers with other countries and not build any airplanes to put on them would it?

    Personally I think 'the government' has far too much involvement with school data than is healthy at the moment. How many of you know exactly how much of your personal data is harvested for the School Workfarce Census?

    (Sorry can't work out how to put another quote in!) RE: Primary Schools.

    I am a Primary School Office Manager. I think you would be surprised how much we rely on our MIS. We (I) certainly use a lot more than 10% of it. I would say we are up to about 75% and rising and I would class us as an Average Primary School of a larger size (nor 320). We use SIMS and I don't mind saying that I wouldn't change.

    What you suggest about choosing only components that we will use is exactly what we get with SIMS. We 'buy into' Dinner Money as an 'add on'. Also use FMS and Personnel. We have added on SchoolComms (okay I know that's not SIMS but it is a SIMS partner). We don't have a licence for timetabling; profiles; or exams.

    Why do you all keep trying to re-invent the wheel? The biggest problem with school MIS is the woeful lack of understanding (in the Primary sector at least) of most Headteachers and SMT's who seem to think that their admin staff don't need any training or qualifications to do the job and offer 'peanuts' in salary terms! This lack of training is self-evident in many of the posts that you will see both on Edugeek and Supportnet.

    Hope I haven't gone 'off topic' too far. In case you wonder about my 'credentials' for the abov POV, come February I will have been using SIMS for 20 years.

  7. #246

    GREED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    3,297
    Thank Post
    407
    Thanked 418 Times in 338 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    191
    Not at all GeeHubb, although you could expect a backlash on your comment about the requirement from training for staff from certain posters...

  8. #247
    EdWhittaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Rochdale
    Posts
    114
    Thank Post
    6
    Thanked 20 Times in 17 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by marshharrier View Post
    My idea ... that the government builds the backbone (after all it's them that want endless census data out of MIS) and then the private sector innovates and builds the components!
    I think I've said before, fine in theory but in practise every ICT project HMG gets involved in turns to dust. What would probably happen is that the 'backbone' would end up being so complex and convoluted with so many restrictions and requirements that it would turn out to be so difficult and expensive to work with that only the big boys would have the resources to do so (can you see where this is going ...?) that you would end up more or less with what we've got now.

    Quote Originally Posted by marshharrier View Post
    On topic - Interoperability absolutely HAS to happen with MIS and the players should be forced (by law if necessary) to co-operate (although they might appear to be on-side with SIF, it is IMHO a bit of smoke and mirrors and not proper engagement on the part of some!)
    Problem with efforts for interoperability (and single sign on) so far, it seems to me, is that major players are each trying to get their own solution adopted; so that they can effectively dictate the direction of travel. One of the biggest failings of Becta (and there were many) is that they tended to talk only to the big IT providers and didn't look below the radar to see what innovative and new solutions might be out there.

  9. #248
    EdWhittaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Rochdale
    Posts
    114
    Thank Post
    6
    Thanked 20 Times in 17 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    We use SIMS and I don't mind saying that I wouldn't change.
    What, not even for something better and cheaper??

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    In case you wonder about my 'credentials' for the abov POV, come February I will have been using SIMS for 20 years.
    This is part of the problem, if you don't mind me saying so. People sticking with what they know because it's all they've ever known and they are 'comfortable' and familiar with it is a natural human response, but it is a barrier to innovation.

  10. #249
    GeeHubb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    182
    Thank Post
    17
    Thanked 37 Times in 32 Posts
    Rep Power
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Not at all GeeHubb, although you could expect a backlash on your comment about the requirement from training for staff from certain posters...
    Don't think so. I am talking about my experience. In a Primary we don't have the luxury of a dedicated MIS manager to handle the training requirements of the admin staff 'in-house'. I am the nearest we have, but staff training is not my responsibility and I just wouldn't have the time. We don't even have 'in-house' technical support. We rely very heavily on the helpline and training courses. However, we have no budget for SIMS training ...... Do you see what I'm getting at? We can't be the only school (Primary) where this is the case.

  11. #250
    GeeHubb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Suffolk
    Posts
    182
    Thank Post
    17
    Thanked 37 Times in 32 Posts
    Rep Power
    57
    Quote Originally Posted by EdWhittaker View Post
    What, not even for something better and cheaper??



    This is part of the problem, if you don't mind me saying so. People sticking with what they know because it's all they've ever known and they are 'comfortable' and familiar with it is a natural human response, but it is a barrier to innovation.
    You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. Something done on the cheap. That's what the connotations are. How are the cost savings being made. Would I have to sacrifice quality? Would the helpdesk be based in a foreign country? Would money be put into development and testing? Would the product managers be able to keep up with the shifting sands of government requirements?

    You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid!

    As for my being 'comfortable' with what I know. Well yes, I am, and I am not going to apologise for that! At this stage, I am not going to want to waste the 20 years of experience with SIMS that I have by going off to learn a new system - though perhaps it is what I should have done earlier in my career!

  12. #251
    EdWhittaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Rochdale
    Posts
    114
    Thank Post
    6
    Thanked 20 Times in 17 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    You see I have a problem with the word cheaper.
    ok, wrong choice of words, lets say 'less expensive' then.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid!
    Despite not knowing anything about nor ever having seen it? Fair enough, if your system aint broke, don't fix it. If it does exactly what you want it to in the way you want it done and you're happy with the cost, then you don't need to change. However, many schools are not happy and are looking for better solutions.

  13. #252

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,530
    Thank Post
    527
    Thanked 2,648 Times in 2,049 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    You see I have a problem with the word cheaper. Something done on the cheap. That's what the connotations are. How are the cost savings being made. Would I have to sacrifice quality? Would the helpdesk be based in a foreign country? Would money be put into development and testing? Would the product managers be able to keep up with the shifting sands of government requirements?

    You would have such an uphill battle persuading me that your product was better I'm afraid!

    As for my being 'comfortable' with what I know. Well yes, I am, and I am not going to apologise for that! At this stage, I am not going to want to waste the 20 years of experience with SIMS that I have by going off to learn a new system - though perhaps it is what I should have done earlier in my career!
    How are you ensuring best value if you simply use the argument that you're used to your MIS? Not exactly the best way of ensuring best value for your school!

  14. #253

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Surburbia
    Posts
    2,178
    Thank Post
    74
    Thanked 307 Times in 243 Posts
    Rep Power
    116
    You see I have a problem with the word cheaper.
    There is a phenomenal amount of money being wee-weed away out of public funds for school MIS. The BECTA swansong report predicts licensing/maintenance at ~£45 million per year, with support adding additional £65 million per year and AFAIK it's mostly for "old rope". The problem the s/w solves just isn't that big - ask anyone with a serious development clue what they could do with a lean/mean team of their choosing for a small fraction of that, say £1 million a year.. you'll get a bunch of variations on "near perfection".. and there's a very good chance it would be.

    Here's a very relevant BECTA line with my emphasis: In the light of the current financial pressures facing schools and the nation generally we consider that the base cost and its current rate of increase will both be considered unacceptable.

    It is unacceptable.

    Problem with efforts for interoperability (and single sign on) so far, it seems to me, is that major players are each trying to get their own solution adopted
    C'est la vie... it's what the company I worked for wanted when playing standards eons ago, and for all the guff people talk about the lovely open-ess I've seen the same in RFC-land (first time was in the 90s with mail service vendors trying to get SMTP extended their way, not the other lots way).
    Last edited by PiqueABoo; 13th November 2010 at 08:17 PM.

  15. 2 Thanks to PiqueABoo:

    Ethain (19th November 2010), marshharrier (14th November 2010)

  16. #254

    matt40k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ipswich
    Posts
    4,524
    Thank Post
    375
    Thanked 677 Times in 551 Posts
    Rep Power
    166
    @marshharrier
    Go buy Phil Neal a Martin and get him to tell you the history of SIMS .net, once he's finished get him to tell you about SMAC, SCRIPT, SAMS, SCAMP etc. Basically all public sector designed MIS systems either go private sector (SIMS) or they die (SMAC etc). Period.

  17. #255

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hants
    Posts
    54
    Thank Post
    5
    Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeHubb View Post
    Are you really suggesting that you would trust this (or any) government to build a school's MIS? When you say 'the government' precisely who in the government are you expecting to be tasked with the proposal? This would be the same government that are proposing to share aircraft carriers with other countries and not build any airplanes to put on them would it?

    Personally I think 'the government' has far too much involvement with school data than is healthy at the moment. How many of you know exactly how much of your personal data is harvested for the School Workfarce Census?
    Like it or not the Government (most Governments) already hold more information about each of us than anyone else! I don't like it particularly but it is a fact nonetheless. I'd rather this than massive private 'corporates' with other agendas gathering our data! @GeeHubb ... you clearly don't mind how many organisations gather data on you?

    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    @marshharrier
    Go buy Phil Neal a Martin and get him to tell you the history of SIMS .net, once he's finished get him to tell you about SMAC, SCRIPT, SAMS, SCAMP etc. Basically all public sector designed MIS systems either go private sector (SIMS) or they die (SMAC etc). Period.
    I don't have a problem with the Government hiring out external companies to build the backbone (a la Capita/Serco) but I DO have a problem with those private companies then owning the backbone as is the case now! The Government could easily (right now) contract the building of an MIS backbone from any number of companies who could build it and transfer the ownership to the Gov't for substantially less than £10 million GBP! Sounds like good value to me ....



SHARE:
+ Post New Thread

Similar Threads

  1. What MIS Systems Do You Use In USA
    By russdev in forum US MIS Software
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 19th March 2012, 06:11 AM
  2. MIS systems - is there room?
    By russdev in forum Blue Skies
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 17th November 2010, 09:34 AM
  3. The UK Government and MIS Systems
    By jamescox84 in forum MIS Systems
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 13th July 2009, 09:51 PM
  4. Fronter - Changing MIS systems
    By adamf in forum Virtual Learning Platforms
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 3rd May 2008, 06:24 PM
  5. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 20th March 2007, 10:19 AM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •