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MIS Systems Thread, School MIS Systems in Technical; .......but not for the heavy lifting. Talk about misinformation......
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    scholarpack's Avatar
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    .......but not for the heavy lifting. Talk about misinformation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by scholarpack View Post
    .......but not for the heavy lifting. Talk about misinformation...
    Evidence of this? It is specifically designed for heavy lifting - ie. dealing with massive datasets...

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    scholarpack's Avatar
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    Here?

    MySQL is the backend data store, Cassandra does inbox stuff. I'm not saying Cassandra doesn't have it's place - I think digg and even twitter is looking/has had at a changeover - but an MIS needs to enforce strict data integrity..something noSQL doesn't prioritise, right? I don't want to get off topic..we're talking about a school MIS here, Facebook is kind of irrelevant.

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    I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
    I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on
    SIF really isn't there yet. In a school you would have to have a SIF server, SIF agents on all the bits, it'll cause more problems. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future. Just for now, MIS API > App > other MIS API

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scholarpack View Post
    Here?

    MySQL is the backend data store, Cassandra does inbox stuff. I'm not saying Cassandra doesn't have it's place - I think digg and even twitter is looking/has had at a changeover - but an MIS needs to enforce strict data integrity..something noSQL doesn't prioritise, right? I don't want to get off topic..we're talking about a school MIS here, Facebook is kind of irrelevant.
    No, Facebook isn't irrelevant. You attempted to say that noSQL systems couldn't handle the system requirements of things like an MIS. I am trying to tell you that they can, and do! Whatever way you look at it, you are trying to justify limiting a user to a single database backend, rather than allowing the user to be database agnostic by using ORM. Limiting choice is a bad thing for systems like this.

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    EdWhittaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
    ... different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system.
    And as long as they pay hefty licence fee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, Facebook isn't irrelevant. You attempted to say that noSQL systems couldn't handle the system requirements of things like an MIS. I am trying to tell you that they can, and do! Whatever way you look at it, you are trying to justify limiting a user to a single database backend, rather than allowing the user to be database agnostic by using ORM. Limiting choice is a bad thing for systems like this.
    I attempted to say.. am attempting to say.. that noSQL has no means of enforcing data integrity like a normal RDB would. That logic has to be done by the application layer. Cassandra places speed and scalability over integrity. That is a bad thing for a data store where scalability issues are not important but enforcing integrity very much is. A school MIS doesn't need to be hugely distributed/large number of users like Facebook, twitter, or whatever other huge site you want to talk about..

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    Quote Originally Posted by scholarpack View Post
    I attempted to say.. am attempting to say.. that noSQL has no means of enforcing data integrity like a normal RDB would. That logic has to be done by the application layer. Cassandra places speed and scalability over integrity. That is a bad thing for a data store where scalability issues are not important but enforcing integrity very much is. A school MIS doesn't need to be hugely distributed/large number of users like Facebook, twitter, or whatever other huge site you want to talk about..
    Except for the part where school MIS systems now end up being used by parents, governors, pupils, staff etc via MLEs and 'learning platforms'. So, their user numbers are increasing. Your comment regarding application layer is fine - but this could well be done in an intermediary layer... ORM for example. Why do it via the database? You are avoiding the point that you are limiting them to a single technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You are avoiding the point that you are limiting them to a single technology.
    Which would increase the support costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    Which would increase the support costs.
    Not necessarily. Having a system able to use different software doesn't mean it will use different software. What it means is that those third party clients would be insulated from any backend changes. So, even if the system was designed to work with MySQL and that was the only thing that was supported by the developer, it means that in the future the developer could change to MSSQL, PostgreSQL or any other system without making all the third parties change their systems too!

    This is my entire point. This is why you use ORM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
    I'm a bit surprised to see no references to SIF on this thread. Unless I've completely misunderstood how it works different sub applications could be written by any developer as long as they use the SIF agent defined for the system. The end user could then decide which apps they wanted to use for what - my trips app would pull the pupil data it needed from the core but have it's own set of trip related fields and reports and so on
    I mentioned the use of SIF (Page 3/4) to remove the need to write a whole application in one go plus allow schools to run parallel systems to make sure the application works correctly.

    SIF allows data to be moved between applications. An application can have SIF support builtin or to can be a third-party product. The biggest advantage of SIF is data's entered once and used many times. You update the data in one systems and the new information to updates on 1 or more application connected via SIF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    SIF really isn't there yet.
    Really?? I would beg to differ as were have developed SIF based applications.

    As for the SIF infrastructure there are services available to host the infrastructure off site if your LA or RBC doesn't have the SIF infrastructure in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    it'll cause more problems. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future
    Why don't you ask the 2500 schools in the swgfl, af the future is here an now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by penfold_99 View Post
    Really?? I would beg to differ as were have developed SIF based applications.

    As for the SIF infrastructure there are services available to host the infrastructure off site if your LA or RBC doesn't have the SIF infrastructure in place.



    Why don't you ask the 2500 schools in the swgfl, af the future is here an now.
    I'm in the SWGfL and we have had zero word about SIF. Even the Becta MIS report stated that SIF is not mature enough yet, and that the government needs to start mandating standards of interoperability...

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    SIF between applications I've yet to see other then with a big £££ next to it and more work. Besides, why do I want data flowing out of my network into the LA or RBC?? - Did they improve the security, so it's not a like a hub, sending the data to all rather then to those that are authorised?

    Ok localzuk, I see you point. I was thinking about it from the end-to-end solution provider - such as an LA, but then again, I guess an LA or such would force which bits are used.

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