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MIS Systems Thread, fingerprint registration (or similar) in Technical; anyone using fingerprint scanners for registration? If so any views on them??? We are using ePortal at the mo for ...
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    dirtydog's Avatar
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    fingerprint registration (or similar)

    anyone using fingerprint scanners for registration? If so any views on them??? We are using ePortal at the mo for registering classes.

    Thanks

    (PS not sure if this is in the right place)

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    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
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    We're due to bring this in shortly (next couple of months) - will keep you informed if you want.

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    ricki's Avatar
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    Hi

    We use it for the library.

    Richard

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    mjs_mjs's Avatar
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    we have it for the canteen, i dont agree with it, violation of a humans rights, unless they can opt out and u tell them. if you fail to tell them then you, in my opinoun shouldn't be in a school. there not all too reliable.

    while i was a student my 6th form had them, i of course put my foot down and refused to have my prints taken. done nothing wrong, but whats wrong with my name??? surely thats good enough for registration??? if thats the case then there's no need for finger prints and you need to run it thought your data protection policy.

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    sahmeepee's Avatar
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    We try to use them in the library, but they need to be spoon-fed the first letter or two of the kid's name before they can find it in the list of approx 2000 people.

    I had an amusing demo of a DRS system at BETT a couple of years back where the guy could NOT get the damn thing to recognise my fingerprint. He was even getting me to put my finger on it upside down!! Absolute bobbins!

    The benefits for registration as I see it are:
    • difficult to forge a fingerprint
    The drawbacks are:
    • cost of readers
    • slower than ordinary register (someone still needs to check that the person has been recognised correctly so your form tutor saves no time)
    • time taken to do initial captures
    • breakable
    • additional complexity (installation & support)
    • hysterical parental reaction (no2id brigade etc.)

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    Fatmas's Avatar
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    We are going to be using it for cashless catering but it should be noted that at no point is the child's finger print saved. The system measures unique points on the print to create a unique string for each child. Because of the way this is calculated, it cannot be reversed to find out a fingerprint. So the system only actually saves a string of numbers, not an image of the fingerprint itself. That put a lot of parents concerns at rest when the system was proposed. (So i've been told anyway!)

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmas View Post
    We are going to be using it for cashless catering but it should be noted that at no point is the child's finger print saved. The system measures unique points on the print to create a unique string for each child. Because of the way this is calculated, it cannot be reversed to find out a fingerprint. So the system only actually saves a string of numbers, not an image of the fingerprint itself. That put a lot of parents concerns at rest when the system was proposed. (So i've been told anyway!)
    Indeed, I have yet to find a system which *does* store an image of the print...

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    Ric_'s Avatar
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    It's also worth having a scan of the thread at http://www.edugeek.net/forums/securi...ngerprint.html

    The 'snot-factor' is often overlooked IME.

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    Fatmas's Avatar
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    I must admit I'm not too familiar with the ins and outs of the fingerprint system. I'm not the network manager here and have only been told the general overview of what's going to happen (It is happening in the next few months mind). But I think the staff have been very careful of the "human rights" factor in terms of what information is stored. Everybody seems to be on board with it too.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_ View Post
    It's also worth having a scan of the thread at http://www.edugeek.net/forums/securi...ngerprint.html

    The 'snot-factor' is often overlooked IME.
    The 'snot factor' is easy to deal with - keep a thing of baby wipes by the readers...

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    plexer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjs_mjs View Post
    we have it for the canteen, i dont agree with it, violation of a humans rights, unless they can opt out and u tell them. if you fail to tell them then you, in my opinoun shouldn't be in a school. there not all too reliable.

    while i was a student my 6th form had them, i of course put my foot down and refused to have my prints taken. done nothing wrong, but whats wrong with my name??? surely thats good enough for registration??? if thats the case then there's no need for finger prints and you need to run it thought your data protection policy.
    It's not like the fingerprint itself is being stored so that the police have a handy database available should they wish to obtain access to it.

    Name is not good enough when you could be dealing with someone who won't know the names of several hundred children.

    Keys, fobs and cards can all be lost fingers are harder to lose for most kids.

    Ben

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    We used it with Microlibrarian but it couldn't handle little fingers (Y5) very well and the Librarian was getting through shedloads of wetwipes.

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    Vericool registration is the one we use, it's not really worth it for the money.

    it keeps breaking all the time aswell

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    sahmeepee's Avatar
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    While I can see that the civil liberties argument is a bit weak, I also think that "it doesn't store the fingerprint; it stores a code based on the fingerprint" is a fairly dubious get-out.

    Either it stores enough information to check if a pupil's fingerprint matches that code (so the system will work - arguably not the case for Eclipse/Microlibrarian) or it doesn't store enough information to identify the individual (so the system is not an infringement of civil liberties but not any practical use either). You can't have it both ways!

    All the biometric systems I've come across have been good at telling you if a person is who they say they are, i.e. "does this fingerprint belong to Mr G Smith?", and pretty poor at finding out who a person is from their biometric data, i.e. "who does this fingerprint belong to?". If you think about it it's much easier to get an acceptable success rate in the first case assuming your list of people is even vaguely big.

    And in the words of Duncan Bannatyne, "it's for that reason: I'm out!"

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    Theblacksheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmas View Post
    The system measures unique points on the print to create a unique string for each child. Because of the way this is calculated, it cannot be reversed to find out a fingerprint. So the system only actually saves a string of numbers, not an image of the fingerprint itself. That put a lot of parents concerns at rest when the system was proposed. (So i've been told anyway!)
    Using language like 'just a string of numbers' is a nice attempt at trying to seperate the fact they are taking biometric data.

    If they are using the typical method of 'refernce points' this cannot be hashed as the point pf reference systems are unreliable and two scans from the same person can create two quite different results. The best they've got is storing references seperate from biometric reference point data... it should be noted exact matches are not needed to trigger a positive result.

    A study a few years back, cant rememeber which uni tested against the ISO/IEC 19794-2 minutiae standard and found a 90% sucess rate for reconstructing basic fingerprints from the database templates with no other information to link them.

    Without waffling too much more: biometric fingerprint data can be identified.

    A NI number or credit card number is 'just a string of numbers' too

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