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MIS Systems Thread, fingerprint registration (or similar) in Technical; The Police are not going to come in and start demanding fingerprints of your students. They have means to get ...
  1. #16
    CAM
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    The Police are not going to come in and start demanding fingerprints of your students. They have means to get their own fingerprints if they suspect someone of a crime, if they find fingerprints on something and suspect it is an individual in your school then they'll take the prints themselves to compare and not raid your school's canteen/library/SIMS office. Besides, their fingerprints are all over their iPod's and mobile phones anyway.

    Our canteen uses fingerprint recognition and the kids find it to be a neat little novelty. A bit of hassle registering the prints though with small Year 7 hands not reading properly. When it comes to registration though, is it really worth it? You have to consider the extra cost and making the students come up orderly one-by-one to sign-in for what benefit? If a teacher can't tell if a student is who they really are then they can use Lesson Monitor's photo option to bring up their picture. And as you move down the register, the photo changes to the next student. The benefit of fignerprint recognition in schools is to encourage incresed use with the novelty of the system and help cut down on lost cards or money. Registration uses neither of these benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    The benefit of fignerprint recognition in schools is to encourage incresed use with the novelty of the system and help cut down on lost cards or money.
    It also has the benefit of decreasing the transaction time at the till for busy kitchens (vs. cash that is).
    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Registration uses neither of these benefits.
    None of the three benefits in fact.. It's one of those "costs a lot of money so it must be doing us good" homeopathy type things!

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    but it should be noted that at no point is the child's finger print saved. The system measures unique points on the print to create a unique string for each child. Because of the way this is calculated, it cannot be reversed to find out a fingerprint. So the system only actually saves a string of numbers, not an image of the fingerprint itself.
    Errrr.... In other words, just like the police system. How else would the cops match fingerprints? To be sure, the police keep an image of the fingerprint but that's only used for checking by humans after their system has sorted through their database and pulled out the most likely matches.

    Even though the PNC and your dinner card system store the information in an incompatible manner (and even that is debatable) the police could take a fingerprint they have taken from a crime scene (somehow connected to your pupils), wrap it onto a synthetic finger, put in *your* fingerprint reader, and watch it spit out the name of suspect#1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjs_mjs View Post
    we have it for the canteen, i dont agree with it, violation of a humans rights, unless they can opt out and u tell them. if you fail to tell them then you, in my opinoun shouldn't be in a school. there not all too reliable.

    while i was a student my 6th form had them, i of course put my foot down and refused to have my prints taken. done nothing wrong, but whats wrong with my name??? surely thats good enough for registration??? if thats the case then there's no need for finger prints and you need to run it thought your data protection policy.


    When you were in 6th form your parents would of received a letter telling them about how the finger prints are stored.
    Its not the same system as a national finger print database.

    it works on a principal of numbers assigned to a picture (the finger print is a picture like your school photo)

    over looked another members post.. sorry.....
    Last edited by spacevortex; 24th September 2009 at 02:17 PM. Reason: over looked another members post.. sorry.....

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Ok, so those who say they're against it due to some made up idea that it infringes rights, what if the school uses facial recognition instead? This is storing biometric information again, and could be used in the same way as a photo of a person could...

    The entire idea that fingerprinting is a infringement of rights is bizarre. What are the actual fears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sahmeepee View Post
    We try to use them in the library, but they need to be spoon-fed the first letter or two of the kid's name before they can find it in the list of approx 2000 people.

    I had an amusing demo of a DRS system at BETT a couple of years back where the guy could NOT get the damn thing to recognise my fingerprint. He was even getting me to put my finger on it upside down!! Absolute bobbins!

    The benefits for registration as I see it are:
    • difficult to forge a fingerprint
    The drawbacks are:
    • cost of readers
    • slower than ordinary register (someone still needs to check that the person has been recognised correctly so your form tutor saves no time)
    • time taken to do initial captures
    • breakable
    • additional complexity (installation & support)
    • hysterical parental reaction (no2id brigade etc.)
    I'm with on the downsides - I tried quite hard to change their minds - we have ePortal registration as it is - if a teacher can't take a register on that - I don't see how having a fingerprint reader is going to improve - as you've introduced another couple of failure points in every classroom (the reader itself, the software and whether it scans the finger correctly) - just seems like a lot of expense & hassle for very few tangible benefits.

  7. #22

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Just a comment on the hysterical parent brigade - we've had our first angry letter the other day claiming things about infringing human rights and civil liberties, but they fail to provide any explanation as to how this data is any different to the hundreds of other pieces of data being held by the school, LEA, DCSF, and government as a whole...

    There is, it seems, no way of appeasing these fears - as those with them consistently fail to provide any evidence as to why it is bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spacevortex View Post
    When you were in 6th form your parents would of received a letter telling them about how the finger prints are stored.
    Its not the same system as a national finger print database.

    it works on a principal of numbers assigned to a picture (the finger print is a picture like your school photo)

    over looked another members post.. sorry.....
    my parents did not recieve a letter - nor did i.

    i know it isn't the same database and i also asked the question of how the print was processed to which no one could give me a definitive answer. why should i let my prints be used in a system where the techs and admin havent the foggiest???

    some sytems actually save an image of your print - this one did. so i opted out - as is my right. i also didn't have a school photo. again i opted out.

    i also asked for all letters concerning me to be sent to me and not my parents and for them to correct my name from matt to matthew on all formal documentation, nither oh which they did (in breach of the DPA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Just a comment on the hysterical parent brigade - we've had our first angry letter the other day claiming things about infringing human rights and civil liberties, but they fail to provide any explanation as to how this data is any different to the hundreds of other pieces of data being held by the school, LEA, DCSF, and government as a whole...

    There is, it seems, no way of appeasing these fears - as those with them consistently fail to provide any evidence as to why it is bad.
    the DPA says that you may only collect infomation that you need... so you need to justify having a print... why would you need my print when you have my name???

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    I'm personally against storing any form of biometric data, including (but not limited to) fingerprints. One major problem I have with biometric data being used for identification/authentication is the very fact that once you give it to an organisation you have no way of changing it should the data be leaked etc.

    If you're using a password/pin code should there be a breach it is possible to change the password/pin. However with biometrics this is simply not possible - you can't change someones fingerprint. As biometrics become more wide spread I can already see a market springing up to convert reference point data to an acceptable gummy finger alternative to "fake" a biometric. Even without the reference data it is very easy to acquire a biometric like a fingerprint should someone want access to a system that your biometric grants you access to.

    It is my belief that biometrics are over used and their full consequences haven't been fully considered by most organisations. There are very few instances that I believe a biometric should be used as a form of authentication/identification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfish View Post
    I'm personally against storing any form of biometric data, including (but not limited to) fingerprints. One major problem I have with biometric data being used for identification/authentication is the very fact that once you give it to an organisation you have no way of changing it should the data be leaked etc.

    If you're using a password/pin code should there be a breach it is possible to change the password/pin. However with biometrics this is simply not possible - you can't change someones fingerprint. As biometrics become more wide spread I can already see a market springing up to convert reference point data to an acceptable gummy finger alternative to "fake" a biometric. Even without the reference data it is very easy to acquire a biometric like a fingerprint should someone want access to a system that your biometric grants you access to.

    It is my belief that biometrics are over used and their full consequences haven't been fully considered by most organisations. There are very few instances that I believe a biometric should be used as a form of authentication/identification.
    never thought of it from this angle. i would like to know where you think they should be used.

  12. #27

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjs_mjs View Post
    the DPA says that you may only collect infomation that you need... so you need to justify having a print... why would you need my print when you have my name???
    Justification - having to handle 600 kids in an hour through a single till. ie. there's no space for more tills, no money for more till operators. To put that in numbers - choosing a person manually on a system takes about 20 seconds per person, them using their finger takes 2 seconds. This form of knowing who is eating what is now a requirement that is being pushed on us by external bodies also (I don't know exact details, just seen a brief glimpse of a requirements document stating that all food sales should be itemised). Issuing cards is a nightmare - they will get lost, especially with the age of kids we have here. Not to mention them being forgotten etc... The cost would far outstrip anything we could afford to maintain.

    That is justification enough in my eyes.

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