+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23
MIS Systems Thread, CMIS Data Integration in Technical; Hi, I'm new here and very new to CMIS, so allow me to introduce myself. I am a developer by ...
  1. #1
    nathj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    CMIS Data Integration

    Hi,

    I'm new here and very new to CMIS, so allow me to introduce myself. I am a developer by trade who has is currently involved in helping my employer to decide upon a VLE. Currently the options are FROG, in-house or a combination of the two.

    One part that I am currently considering is the ability to read from our MIS - CMIS. further to this I want to be able to write back to it - it's only SQL database after all.

    My question is this; does anyone have or know of any documentation on the data structure or have any advice on writing information to the database?

    All help will be greatly appreciated.

    Many thanks
    nathj

  2. #2


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,202
    Thank Post
    442
    Thanked 1,032 Times in 812 Posts
    Rep Power
    339
    We did this CMIS/moodle integration before the powers that be made us migrate to SIMS (political decision rather than technical)

    I'm afraid I don't have any documentation, other than to say it is possible as its just an SQL database.
    Last edited by CyberNerd; 3rd December 2008 at 03:31 PM. Reason: repeating myself

  3. #3
    nathj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    That's encouraging and pretty much as I expected. I'm sure it's not going to cause me too much bother - once I figure out the data structure. To be honest as MySQL, PHP developer I'm not at all worried about the code I just want some tips on the data structure as I hear it's not normalised and doesn't make any logical sense but as yet I've not seen it.

    Also, the tools that we are considering for a VLE seem to be able to read from the CMIS system but not write to them - which could result in data duplication and even poorer data integrity.

    Thanks for the encouraging words though
    nathj

  4. #4


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,202
    Thank Post
    442
    Thanked 1,032 Times in 812 Posts
    Rep Power
    339
    no worries,

    My top tips would be to get CMIS and you Directory server (AD) in sync, (so that either the LDAP stores a unique identifier or so CMIS stores the username). This way most of the (read-only) integration with moodle is already done (it will automatically pull out course information etc if you create a SQL view to do it) then you just need to write some moodle blocks/modules to put (grades) back into the database.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    423
    Thank Post
    7
    Thanked 30 Times in 26 Posts
    Rep Power
    21
    Our recommendation would be to not write back to CMIS..

  6. #6
    nathj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    Why is that your recommendation?

    If I have a system that enables students/parents to view performance records, grades whatever then it makes sense if the teacher can use the same system to update that information. One system for al the main tasks.

    If it's done properly I see no reason why this would be an issue - which is why I asked my question at the start of this post. I'm new to this and looking for input, if you have reasons for this - experience etc then please let me know.

    Many thanks
    nathj

  7. #7

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,230
    Thank Post
    54
    Thanked 278 Times in 186 Posts
    Rep Power
    134
    I imagine that Serco will wash their hands of any support issues if you start writing to the database without their agreement. I've never found a proper data dictionary for the system, so you are only having an educated guess at what the fields are used for - not a problem for extracting data - but a big prob putting it back in.

  8. #8
    nathj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    Thanks for the clarification. Support issues should certainly be a consideration. Is the data structure as poor as I've read about with no DD, no normalisation and really poor data integrity?

  9. #9

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,230
    Thank Post
    54
    Thanked 278 Times in 186 Posts
    Rep Power
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by nathj View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. Support issues should certainly be a consideration. Is the data structure as poor as I've read about with no DD, no normalisation and really poor data integrity?
    It was the last time I looked.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    5
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    I spotted this post because it has the word Frog in it, but it's a question we're often asked, so I thought I'd send a reply.

    As a rule you should never update a third party database directly. The risk of breaking "referential integrity" is too great. You might notice that you've broken it straight away, you might notice 6 months later. Either way, you would have to be very "lucky" rather than very "skilled" not to break it. While I've never personally seen the CMIS schema, it's worth mentioning that there are all sorts of reasons why databases are not 100% normalised, typically related to performance. If you are not aware of the exact details of any system's intentionally denormalised data, caching tables, (design flaws) and so on then the data will inevitably become inconsistent.

    It's for this reason that commercial database suppliers typically provide an API - a set of business objects, or web services that handle read and write to the database while ensuring that the referential integrity is maintained. This approach also ensures that as the database is changed by the supplier in subsequent releases that your code doesn't break further down the line.

    We have been working with CMIS for a few years now. Initially we accessed their database directly through ODBC drivers. Serco have recently started a partner programme and are building a library of web services. I believe that they have only got as far as reading data out, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they provide web services to write data back as well.

    As tempting as it may be to just "get stuck in there", I would recommend patience. I would be extremely surprised if Serco were happy to provide support to your school if they felt that the school had been responsible for "breaking the data."

    There may well be other ways of skinning the cat though, it depends on exactly what you're trying to achieve.

    Hope this has been helpful.

    Gareth

  11. Thanks to gareth.davies from:

    Tonyoung (5th December 2008)

  12. #11
    mark80's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Derbyshire
    Posts
    213
    Thank Post
    23
    Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
    Rep Power
    16
    Getting to grips with CMIS data structure is like trying to get a grip on the Popes balls!!

    Our school is opting for Moodle/CMIS integration due to the increasing support network

  13. #12

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,230
    Thank Post
    54
    Thanked 278 Times in 186 Posts
    Rep Power
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by mark80 View Post
    Getting to grips with CMIS data structure is like trying to get a grip on the Popes balls!!
    Given what (supposedly) happens at the Popes inaugeration - not sure whether you mean its easy or difficult!

  14. #13

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Plymouth
    Posts
    63
    Thank Post
    6
    Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
    Rep Power
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffMonkey View Post
    I imagine that Serco will wash their hands of any support issues if you start writing to the database without their agreement. I've never found a proper data dictionary for the system, so you are only having an educated guess at what the fields are used for - not a problem for extracting data - but a big prob putting it back in.
    The moment you start writing data back to the DB you would have broken the Serco license agreement, allowing them to completely cut off all support.
    The ONLY time that won't happen is if you are registered as a partner of Serco's and that is not a cheap option.

    Strictly speaking if you only read data from the DB you're also breaking the license, but this is less severe as you don't run the risk of writing back to the DB and breaking it.

    I've been working with the CMIS DB for a number of years now and like others here I've never come across a data map. Often I think even Serco doesn't have one, judging by how they sometimes botch their upgrades.

    Why do you need to write back to the CMIS DB anyway? You can have custom fields in AD that you can write to at will. Provided you have a link between AD accounts and CMIS (the admission number springs to mind!) you can have data straddle both systems. This should take care of practically everything you need from a SysAdmin's point of view.

    For any other data that needs writing back specifically to the CMIS DB, have your staff members use ePortal or CMIS itself.

  15. #14

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    6
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    CMIS data structures are pretty tricky to understand without a data dictionary.
    And I echo what everyone else is saying, once you start writing (or deleting / editing!) data directly within the CMIS database, you will negate the support agreement and CMIS will be quite within their rights to withdraw support.

  16. #15

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    4
    Thank Post
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Rep Power
    0
    Hi all,

    To confirm the presumptions regarding bespoke reading/writing from the Facility database, the only officially supported methods are via API, SIF or some of our partners who may use proprietary methods - but we encouraging everyone to move over to the above.

    As Gareth from Frog (also one of our partners) has already stated, we are working with our partners to continue to evolve the API and write back methods have started to appear - these being around attendance and some limited student details. No doubt we'll add more over time.

    In terms of a data structure/map, we don't make that public for a number of obvious reasons (commercial/IP, etc). However, if anyone would like to find out more or talk to me about using the API or integration in general just drop me a PM.

    Thanks
    Adrian

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. CMIS and Easytrace Integration
    By budgester in forum MIS Systems
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 13th September 2010, 09:23 AM
  2. CMIS and Active Directory Integration
    By Tricky_Dicky in forum MIS Systems
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 8th January 2010, 12:47 PM
  3. CMIS DATA MANAGER
    By SpecialAgent in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 6th July 2009, 03:52 PM
  4. CMIS Data Manager
    By kevbaz in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 29th June 2009, 12:30 PM
  5. CMIS DATA MANAGER
    By SpecialAgent in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 9th May 2007, 11:10 AM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •