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MIS Systems Thread, SIMS Registers and Fire Drills in Technical; Really surprised to see anyone advocating not having some kind of idea if all your pupils are out of a ...
  1. #46

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Really surprised to see anyone advocating not having some kind of idea if all your pupils are out of a burning building?!

    My first thought is what happens if the fire brigade sweep the building and miss little Johnny hiding from the flames somewhere? Can you really rely on every nook and cranny being searched in a high pressure situation? If you have a register (or head count number), and the fire brigade come out declare the building empty, you can set them straight. If you don't you could leave someone in there to roast. I imagine there are situations where the fire fighters have to decide whether to press on in a fire or turn back, if they know a child is still in there then their thinking might alter.

    Also, when dealing with small children, I believe they are more likely to come out of any hiding place if someone is calling their name.

    We have a laminated card with the absent children marked off. Takes a second.

  2. #47

    creese's Avatar
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    This thread wouldn't last 5 minutes in the US, they seem to have a much higher regard for their Fire Service than many people here. especially if anyone thinks a Fire Person would not risk their lives if attending a school fire but have a blasé attitude of 'There's probably no one in there, so let it burn, were off for tea and bickies.@ Seriously.

    I despair. We all have our jobs, let the Fire Service do theirs. If The combined Fire Services in this country don't think it is necessary to have a thing called a Fire Register maybe we should trust that one is not needed and stop trying to tell them their job.... or not?

    Simple facts. Don't need one. Won't be any use to have one. They would not be accurate. They would be ignored. They won't save lives. They are a complete waste of time.

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    Arreks's Avatar
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    I think 'fire registers', i.e a printed off non-electronic copy of a series of names that should be present is purely just a public relations gimmick that schools have stuck with for years - simply because if they were suddenly removed, there would be a public outcry from parents and governors.

    I agree with other posters' points that the Fire Services will simply disregard them, because I don't honestly believe that they would do any less of their job if the register was present. However that doesn't mean that they've always been unnecessary, they've been around for decades and at one point they would've been relied on completely - but things have advanced and changed, for the better.

    As far as I'm concerned it would cause more havoc to get rid of them even if they are unnecessary.
    Last edited by Arreks; 15th July 2014 at 04:44 PM.

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  5. #49

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arreks View Post
    they've been around for centuries and as far as I'm concerned it would cause more havoc to get rid of them..
    They have???

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    Arreks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    They have???
    My bad, I meant to write decades.

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  8. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post
    especially if anyone thinks a Fire Person would not risk their lives if attending a school fire but have a blasé attitude of 'There's probably no one in there, so let it burn, were off for tea and bickies.@ Seriously.
    I don't think ANYONE has even remotely insinuated that.

    If The combined Fire Services in this country don't think it is necessary to have a thing called a Fire Register maybe we should trust that one is not needed and stop trying to tell them their job.
    The fact that we have done a head-count/taken a register may not be necessary for the Fire Brigade, but it may be necessary in accordance with school/LEA/government safeguarding children guidelines. If this is the case, it would be the Fire Brigade telling US how to do OUR job.

    And just a few FTFYs

    Simple facts.
    Simple opinions

    Don't need one.
    [The Fire Brigade] don't need one. If the school governors says we need one, then we need one.

    Won't be any use to have one.
    Won't be any use [to the Fire Brigade] to have one. It may well be of use to the teacher/school.

    They would not be accurate.
    They may not be accurate. However, teacher's are generally pretty good at taking registers. They get enough practice!

    They would be ignored.
    They would be ignored [by the Fire Brigade], not by the school.

    They won't save lives.
    ...but they may help to save a school's reputation in a negligence claim or, heaven forbid, a corporate manslaughter charge.

    They are a complete waste of time.
    If, by taking a register, I am reassured that every child for whom I have responsibility is safely accounted for - I would be happy to waste my time by taking a register twenty times over.

  9. #52

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieM View Post
    I don't think ANYONE has even remotely insinuated that.
    No. Directly.

    And with that, and being dizzy from going round in circles.

  10. #53

    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creese View Post

    Simple facts. Don't need one. Won't be any use to have one. They would not be accurate. They would be ignored. They won't save lives. They are a complete waste of time.
    Yer... I'd like to hear a fire chief publicly say these things. I'm not saying that isn't what you have been told but I'd really like to have that on the record from the experts saying not to bother counting your kids out just leave it to them when they turn up and they will check everywhere for an unknown number of possibly missing kids...

    As a parent, a school that took that policy, I would remove my child.

  11. #54

    matt40k's Avatar
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    LOL @GREED!! So when are you announcing your fire drill app?

    Fact. The fire service will search the buildings regardless. Like @StevieM has said, this is getting into more of a safeguarding problem more then anything. Forget the fire scenario for a min, how do you know where little Jimmy is day-to-day, in a primary, they tend to stick in one class - easy, in secondary, they tend to move around, most schools would use Lesson Monitor like @creese spoke about, so you record attendance at each lesson rather then just AM/PM.

    As a parent I would remove my child if the school policy is:
    - to force a person to wait by a highly flammable printer whilst the "latest" register is printed
    - rely on technology - connections drop out, batteries go flat, electronic devices fail, software crashes.

    actually, heck, I'll remove my son if no-one in school knew who he was or didn't notice his lack of presence!

    Printing a class list then having the headteacher \ head of year \ SLT with a copy of all them which they can grab on the way out IS THE BEST ANSWER. Having the current class teacher responsible for getting THEIR current class out safely should be their responsibility, they should then report anyone who wasn't in the classroom - ie going to the toilet to SLT or such. This will need to happen even with a superfluous electronic system, even with ID cards!

    Interestedly, no one has questioned what happens if your school did burn down, and you lost your IT (sorry, IT equipment + fire = melted mess). How would you contact the parents of the child caught in the fire? Did you print the latest contact details on the register? Suddenly that annoying B2B task your LA keeps getting you to reset seems quite worthwhile.

  12. #55

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Ok so I performed a quick google to see if I could find some advice on this.
    In the first few results there showed advice from the Fire Service in Oxfordshire that clearly shows they expect roll call to be performed and reported to the attending officers.
    https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/cms/c...outine-schools
    Roll call

    One person should be nominated to have overall responsibility to ensure that a roll call is conducted in the event of a fire alarm. They should use the following instructions:

    • Immediately after classes have assembled at the assembly point, a roll call or count must be made to check that no-one is still inside.
    • Any visitors or contractors on the premises at that time must be included.
    • The count at the assembly point must be checked with the attendance registers and visitors book to verify that everyone is out of the building.
    • Attendance registers and visitors books should be held at a central point and must be brought to the assembly point when the alarm sounds.
    • Each teacher must report to the nominated person in charge of the evacuation to verify that everyone in their charge is accounted for or to inform him/her of the number of people missing.

    Meeting the fire service

    The person in charge of the roll call must identify him/herself to the fire service on their arrival. This will allow the fire officer to decide the necessary actions to be carried out by the fire service.
    Typical information the fire service will want to know:

    • Is everyone accounted for?
    • If anyone is missing: how many? What is their usual location? Where were they last seen?
    • Where is the fire? What is on fire? (It may not be apparent)
    • Are there any hazardous substances involved in the fire or stored in the building (e.g chemicals, solvents, liquified petroleum gas or acetylene cylinders)?
    This is published advice from the Fire Service, not hearsay about what some guy once said to me that can't possibly be substantiated

    EDIT: Northumberland Fire and Rescue advice is pretty much the same:
    http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/def...spx?page=16805
    The aim of evacuating all buildings is to attempt to carry out a roll call
    There are more examples of other services advising the same but the point is made. So it seems official Fire Service advice is you need to do a roll call and report it to the Firemen...
    Last edited by sparkeh; 16th July 2014 at 01:37 AM.

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  14. #56

    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    LOL @GREED!! So when are you announcing your fire drill app?
    I'm not, and clearly according to some here it would be a complete waste of time if one was to, because schools just shouldn't bother checking to see if their kids have all got out of a burning building alive...

    Fact. The fire service will search the buildings regardless. Like @StevieM has said, this is getting into more of a safeguarding problem more then anything. Forget the fire scenario for a min, how do you know where little Jimmy is day-to-day, in a primary, they tend to stick in one class - easy, in secondary, they tend to move around, most schools would use Lesson Monitor like @creese spoke about, so you record attendance at each lesson rather then just AM/PM.

    As a parent I would remove my child if the school policy is:
    - to force a person to wait by a highly flammable printer whilst the "latest" register is printed
    - rely on technology - connections drop out, batteries go flat, electronic devices fail, software crashes.

    actually, heck, I'll remove my son if no-one in school knew who he was or didn't notice his lack of presence!

    Printing a class list then having the headteacher \ head of year \ SLT with a copy of all them which they can grab on the way out IS THE BEST ANSWER. Having the current class teacher responsible for getting THEIR current class out safely should be their responsibility, they should then report anyone who wasn't in the classroom - ie going to the toilet to SLT or such. This will need to happen even with a superfluous electronic system, even with ID cards!

    Interestedly, no one has questioned what happens if your school did burn down, and you lost your IT (sorry, IT equipment + fire = melted mess). How would you contact the parents of the child caught in the fire? Did you print the latest contact details on the register? Suddenly that annoying B2B task your LA keeps getting you to reset seems quite worthwhile.
    I'm very much disinterested with a specific solution electronic or otherwise now. The fundamental 'facts' as keeps being quoted disturb me. App or printed list, or very bottom line each tutor knows who is missing, there absolutely has to be a roll call.

    You talk about not realising a lack of presence... so what about when form tutor is absent and a cover teacher is in charge, perhaps supply or cover supervisor, who doesn't know each child in their class? Perhaps it is first day of the new school year?

    I think sensibility comes into play too, no one is suggesting a staff member sit in a burning room printing lists. If the room is on fire the leave (I'd be concerned if a whole room was on fire before the fire alarms sounded!) If not then a quick routine to print lists is plausible.

    Then back to a solution, which is the least likely in a tested scenario to fail, compromised with time, effort, Safety and many other factors. Does an app on a tablet that can be picked up in a second on the way out offer a better rounded solution than waiting for lists to print, given both can be inaccurate, against the chances the device fails...

    And to be clear, I have never suggested a dedicated app for a fire register, I have leaned more towards and electronic function only, preferably one within the MIS either as a fire evac function or simply refer to the class or am/pm registers. I think that easily covers the need.
    Last edited by GREED; 16th July 2014 at 08:01 AM.

  15. #57

    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Ok so I performed a quick google to see if I could find some advice on this.
    In the first few results there showed advice from the Fire Service in Oxfordshire that clearly shows they expect roll call to be performed and reported to the attending officers.

    This is published advice from the Fire Service, not hearsay about what some guy once said to me that can't possibly be substantiated

    EDIT: Northumberland Fire and Rescue advice is pretty much the same:


    There are more examples of other services advising the same but the point is made. So it seems official Fire Service advice is you need to do a roll call and report it to the Firemen...
    Spot on! Probably puts part of this conversation to bed now.

  16. #58

    matt40k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    so what about when form tutor is absent and a cover teacher is in charge, perhaps supply or cover supervisor, who doesn't know each child in their class? Perhaps it is first day of the new school year.
    Heck that's bad luck, unfortunately bad luck tends to go together - but I didn't say I was against class lists!! That's my fail safe!

    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    no one is suggesting a staff member sit in a burning room printing lists. If the room is on fire the leave (I'd be concerned if a whole room was on fire before the fire alarms sounded!) If not then a quick routine to print lists is plausible.
    NO! Fire alarm = Exit building. It doesn't mean look around for a fire to assess how far away you are then head back to your desk, print the registers, then head to the printer, THEN exit the build. The point of a fire alarm is to tell you that you have a fire and you need to get it, it's not a question of distance.

    If you want to print the latest up-2-date registers when you do a fire drill and turn it into a joint truancy exercise, by all means. You can print all the registers in advance.

    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Does an app on a tablet that can be picked up in a second on the way out offer a better rounded solution than waiting for lists to print, given both can be inaccurate, against the chances the device fails...
    I know mine and prob @creese beef is school go into silly mode and buy thousands of pounds worth of wifi equipment to get the playground connected up and on mobile devices all for "safely", only for it to fail because of something silly like the power got shut off, or strangely the device failed - have you ever tried supporting a device on the playing field with no tools? Your options are almost as limited as your time. If you've ever worked in a large school you'll know devices fail day-2-day. Don't risk them failing on the worse day ever. If you're lucky enough to have a system in place, great, use it by all means, just don't forget to take those print class lists, the attendance absentee report and the visitor book - just in case.

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  18. #59

    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    Heck that's bad luck, unfortunately bad luck tends to go together - but I didn't say I was against class lists!! That's my fail safe!



    NO! Fire alarm = Exit building. It doesn't mean look around for a fire to assess how far away you are then head back to your desk, print the registers, then head to the printer, THEN exit the build. The point of a fire alarm is to tell you that you have a fire and you need to get it, it's not a question of distance.

    If you want to print the latest up-2-date registers when you do a fire drill and turn it into a joint truancy exercise, by all means. You can print all the registers in advance.



    I know mine and prob @creese beef is school go into silly mode and buy thousands of pounds worth of wifi equipment to get the playground connected up and on mobile devices all for "safely", only for it to fail because of something silly like the power got shut off, or strangely the device failed - have you ever tried supporting a device on the playing field with no tools? Your options are almost as limited as your time. If you've ever worked in a large school you'll know devices fail day-2-day. Don't risk them failing on the worse day ever. If you're lucky enough to have a system in place, great, use it by all means, just don't forget to take those print class lists, the attendance absentee report and the visitor book - just in case.
    Bad luck yes but a very common occurrence in reality.

    Yes fire alarm means get out, thanks for reading the staff handbook. Reality = people always print out fire lists.

    You suggest that apps and tech is not the answer. Ok that's fine you have plausible reasons. I don't disagree it has issues.

    You suggest printing lists when the alarm sounds is not good. I agree too.

    I suggest printing a list daily just in the event is a huge waste of resources.

    So what is left if we agree with the published advice from the Fire service that a roll call should be taken? No tech, no paper list...

    It is all a compromise. Which ensures people are kept as safe as possible?

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    GREED's Avatar
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    Something perhaps like a scheduled report that puts the output to a Dropbox or similar, to which a tablet is always synced with. Aside from that device failing, a risk, there is no reliance on any other tech. In addition, the only expense is a tablet which I will assume most schools have some sort of mobile device to use with this (heck, have a few SLT staff's mobiles available!).

    In the last school I worked in we spent a good deal of time putting DR procedures in places like a dedicated laptop, 3G Internet dongle etc etc not specific to fire but generally (and many other procedures besides). All to minimise chances of danger to staff as well as reliability to get at key information.
    Last edited by GREED; 16th July 2014 at 09:37 AM.



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