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MIS Systems Thread, Changing from SIMS in Technical; Elsiegee40 maybe split the thread off when the blog is mentioned?...
  1. #106

    GREED's Avatar
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    Elsiegee40 maybe split the thread off when the blog is mentioned?
    Last edited by elsiegee40; 10th May 2014 at 05:14 PM. Reason: posting name please

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    Last edited by pcstru; 10th May 2014 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Moved to avoid the wrath of the mods

  3. #108

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    Nice one @pcstru

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    As I recall SMAC wasn't what we would call an MIS, it was geared specifically to support special needs & the centralised statementing process. It was a long time ago though, so I could be misremembering. I think that was true for many LEA's, their internal own rolled systems were rather narrower than what we now think of as a MIS operating at school or LA level.
    Agreed, at the time it was a MIS and the MIS has evolved since those days, so in todays turns, of comparing then and now, problem not, but that's like comparing DOS to Windows 8.1. I think we agree that a MIS isn't something something that could be created and left alone, it needs continued development and devops ideals seem to fit the bill. So in terms of selecting a new MIS, you need a product from someone who is active in development. Ideally using in-house developers who also support it (my logic being if they mess up, they'll feel the pain, rather then a outsource company who maybe more relaxed and see bugs as more money).

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikpaw View Post
    LOL! - They are now replicating Groupcall to make their own teacher app, i don't know when it will tie in with Intouch to do the messaging, maybe it already does...?


    You mean Capita is going to copy / takeover ASPEN ?


    erm, has anyone said Bromcom yet? .. ..

    seriously, what about DoubleFirst Engage , iSAMS, WCBS, Tribal, Scholarpack, RM, ACS, Plus4Schools, not to mention a simple Google search will find you 100s of online offerings. Those mentioned however, are probably the more popular.


    I've seen that on a few online MIS providers' sites, but more for the sales part rather than the support.
    (COUGH )

  6. #111
    CAM
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCondon View Post
    Plus this year we have the wonders of Planned Learning Hours and Planned Enrichment, Employability and Pastoral hours added into the mix.. For this year AND the previous year no less!!!

    John
    I still don't know what I am supposed to do with Core Learning Aims. :/

  7. #112

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    Try sitting in supplier meetings about the census on this topic then you will be confused!

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    Quote Originally Posted by scholarpack View Post
    Yes absolutely, wasn't saying you hadn't but an open source MIS has been talked about for a decade. The reason it hasn't happened is not just 'support'. It's the horrendous up front development costs and the incredibly entrenched market that mean most start ups would find lower hanging fruit elsewhere - and that's a shame!
    Development costs? In what way? All I can see is finding time nowadays as dev tools are either free or low in cost.

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    And time is not worth anything? To do this in any realistic timescale this is full time work by several people. I go back MANY posts where I say about the cost of eating sleeping and living... cannot and should not be done in the middle of another job leaving either investment or a long long time to develop.

    I'm actually flabbergasted you have said that.

  10. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    And time is not worth anything? To do this in any realistic timescale this is full time work by several people. I go back MANY posts where I say about the cost of eating sleeping and living... cannot and should not be done in the middle of another job leaving either investment or a long long time to develop.

    I'm actually flabbergasted you have said that.
    You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.

    As for development. Some people I know enjoy development, but then again developing an MIS might not be as riviting as writing the next "Twitter"
    Last edited by kinster; 12th May 2014 at 08:56 AM. Reason: additional

  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinster View Post
    You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.

    As for development. Some people I know enjoy development, but then again developing an MIS might not be as riviting as writing the next "Twitter"
    No but I know I do, and most do. What you suggest is that a wealthy individual who does not need to work to live takes this on?

    If you have the quality skills to be able to do this well, the it is likely you are well sort after in a job already. In addition, simply being able to build the database and interface is one aspect, totally aside from knowing education data market inside out, having the links to get the up to data statutory information and regulations, and being able to connect to (or better, build you own) the very complex elements such as timetabling, exams management, messaging. Otherwise to be fair, it is very much a large, yet flat database.

    Regardless of all that... it does cost to do this; time in any commercial world, which this fits, costs money. What about marketing? Sales force? Trainers? Support staff? Are they all going to come onto the non-existent payroll? Or would this project be the exclusive domain of the wealthy who don't have to work?

    Another point and I know this happened before: How do you make money from this or is it free? If free to schools, would paid advertising creep in? And the big question to make all of this academic: Would a school take on a totally free MIS from a company that made no money, trust all this data where there is effectively no incentive to have the company stick to the terms of any contract. I'd actually like to see what the community thinks of that?

  12. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    No but I know I do, and most do. What you suggest is that a wealthy individual who does not need to work to live takes this on?

    If you have the quality skills to be able to do this well, the it is likely you are well sort after in a job already. In addition, simply being able to build the database and interface is one aspect, totally aside from knowing education data market inside out, having the links to get the up to data statutory information and regulations, and being able to connect to (or better, build you own) the very complex elements such as timetabling, exams management, messaging. Otherwise to be fair, it is very much a large, yet flat database.

    Regardless of all that... it does cost to do this; time in any commercial world, which this fits, costs money. What about marketing? Sales force? Trainers? Support staff? Are they all going to come onto the non-existent payroll? Or would this project be the exclusive domain of the wealthy who don't have to work?

    Another point and I know this happened before: How do you make money from this or is it free? If free to schools, would paid advertising creep in? And the big question to make all of this academic: Would a school take on a totally free MIS from a company that made no money, trust all this data where there is effectively no incentive to have the company stick to the terms of any contract. I'd actually like to see what the community thinks of that?
    I agree with those points you make. My comment was in response to your message regarding "eating, sleeping, etc" and "when to do it".

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    I still don't know what I am supposed to do with Core Learning Aims. :/
    Apologies if it's a bit off topic, but I hate to see something going unanswered when there "is" information out there.

    This is an excerpt from the Census Tech spec.

    This field must be used to identify the core aim within a vocational EFA funded study programme for students on roll from 1st August 2013 onwards (including those continuing from the 2012/13 academic year). As the autumn census collects learning aims taken in the previous and current academic year this will mean that a core aim should be returned for each year where a vocational EFA funded study programme is being followed.

    If a student is following an academic programme a core aim does not need to be identified.

    The core aim is the substantive learning aim being undertaken in a studentís programme of study. Please refer to the EFA funding documentation for further information about the core aim including definitions of academic and vocational provision.


    it continues at greater length but I have edited to avoid TL: DR

    You might also want to double check the documentation at DfE documentation but there isn't any Autumn 2014 documentation up there yet.

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    CAM (12th May 2014)

  15. #119

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    Ok No worries. But still, what are your suggestions, your thoughts @kinster?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinster View Post
    You really think everyone lives the same and has to work to survive? Everyone is different.
    Sure, but you aren't looking at everyone. You need people with detail knowledge of the problem domain, excellent software development skills (not just an ability to code, but to code something that is usable by ordinary people) and of those few 'everyone's' remaining, you need someone who is willing to invest a few man years of time to build a system that is viable for the core schools MIS functions.

    An interesting perspective on how difficult the problem actually is might be had from looking at the success of suppliers when they try taking their MIS products to other markets. They should be able to leverage their existing investment in terms of the codebase/system, few seem to manage it.

  17. Thanks to pcstru from:

    GREED (12th May 2014)

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