+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 27 of 27
MIS Systems Thread, MIS & Data Interoperability in Technical; There is also the issue of how do you control how much x third party thrashes the server or services ...
  1. #16

    GREED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    2,967
    Thank Post
    366
    Thanked 359 Times in 293 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    173
    There is also the issue of how do you control how much x third party thrashes the server or services if tapping directly into the database, regardless of they are core tables or not. What if x third party wants to poll every 10 seconds for the entire database which in a new cloud installation could be for an entire LA so 100000 kids full records...

  2. #17

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,249
    Thank Post
    110
    Thanked 242 Times in 193 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    74

    MIS & Data Interoperability

    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    There is also the issue of how do you control how much x third party thrashes the server or services if tapping directly into the database, regardless of they are core tables or not. What if x third party wants to poll every 10 seconds for the entire database which in a new cloud installation could be for an entire LA so 100000 kids full records...
    It's not the third party's fault if calling the published API brings the database to its knees.

  3. #18

    GREED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    2,967
    Thank Post
    366
    Thanked 359 Times in 293 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    173
    Quote Originally Posted by psydii View Post
    It's not the third party's fault if calling the published API brings the database to its knees.
    What?! Yes it is if my suggested scenario is put into effect. I could write one that could flood Internet traffic effectively a ddos. sure I might think I need it for my own uses and having such a badly writen real time data transfer might look good, but how can that be the MIS fault? There has to be control from the MIS side for all involved, especially if it is envisioned that an API is to be open to all.

    I'm not saying that design consideration should be put in to make the MIS resilient but there needs to be check in place.
    Last edited by GREED; 16th February 2014 at 10:15 AM.

  4. #19

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,249
    Thank Post
    110
    Thanked 242 Times in 193 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    74

    MIS & Data Interoperability

    No, it is the MIS developer's fault if the API allows the third party to kill the DB performance.

    Should you be able to ask for a list of all student marks per class from the student, course, and grade book tables? Yes.

    However next time you want it that day you the (API user) should be asking only for "what's changed since I last asked"

    The api behaviour should enable and encourage that, and discourage poor behaviour of the consumer (by weighting the priority of repeated request for full dumps such that day to day operations have precedence, for example).


    Furthermore the MIS provider will be able to see what the 3rd parties are asking for and optimise database (tables, stored procedures, indexes etc) to maximise performance for both their customers and their 3rd party API consumers.
    Last edited by psydii; 16th February 2014 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #20

    GREED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    2,967
    Thank Post
    366
    Thanked 359 Times in 293 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    173
    Coulda Woulda Shoulda... It should only ask for but doesn't guarantee a cheap app won't be poorly built.

    So you are back into the old territory of having an MIS validate every integration, which of course there is a cost for (so third parties loosing out), then there is an overhead with constantly changing and managing the API to suit all, likely passed back to the third party, and then there will inevitably be losers when things need to be changed to balance performance and availability.

    Again, it can and even would ENCOURAGE good behaviour... doesn't mean it will enforce it.

    As an MIS supplier my first and foremost priority is to provide a good service to my customers with my software.

    If too you have read that there is a changing ideal in the way providers work their API/integration model, then the procedures you have described do not fit, or mean a waking great loss for the MIS company if not passing costs onto third parties (which is the current model with a few supplier, and is crippling to some thrid parties and is actively discouraging innovation and choice in the market... not my opinion but the opinion of several I spoke too at BETT).

    Is good to hear different arguments on this topic, exactly what I was looking for!

  6. #21

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,249
    Thank Post
    110
    Thanked 242 Times in 193 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    74
    I'm advocating the MIS providers get into the 21st century and build 'web scale' api's to the enable their customers to pick best of breed applications to meet their needs.

    What I see is MIS providers hunkering down in the 1990's model and trying to shifting the balance of power towards themselves and away from the customer.

  7. #22

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,249
    Thank Post
    110
    Thanked 242 Times in 193 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    74
    Also I know at least one MIS provider who has an API (they need it as a marketing tool) but 3rd party will not build against it because the potential customer base is currently too small, even when the school has offered a months worth of developer-sallery scale money to get it done.

  8. #23

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,007
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 190 Times in 146 Posts
    Rep Power
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by PhilNeal View Post
    I can't imagine any MIS cloud supplier wanting a third party creating routes into the tables. The supplier is responsible for performance and will incur costs if inefficient code is accessing tables not to mention concerns over bypassing all validation checks.
    In both cases that's a decision for the customer to take - once fully warned of the risks of course. You presumably generate a SLA now that already only warranties performance and / or data integrity only while the system is being used in an 'approved' manner.

    Lets be honest here, a "cloud MIS system" is essentially a hosted SQL database and front end. There's not that much secret sauce in that, and neither is it very difficult for the provider to monitor access and highlight anything that's being done in a 'non-approved' manner that is causing problems.
    Last edited by Roberto; 16th February 2014 at 06:33 PM.

  9. #24

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,311
    Thank Post
    35
    Thanked 349 Times in 235 Posts
    Rep Power
    77
    @Roberto - not really many cloud MIS solutions are multi-tenanted i.e. multiple schools in one database. (remember I am not talking SIMS - we are not in the cloud)

  10. Thanks to PhilNeal from:

    GREED (16th February 2014)

  11. #25

    GREED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Portsmouth
    Posts
    2,967
    Thank Post
    366
    Thanked 359 Times in 293 Posts
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    173
    Someone is... well, was... well still is but not here....

  12. #26

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,007
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 190 Times in 146 Posts
    Rep Power
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by PhilNeal View Post
    @Roberto - not really many cloud MIS solutions are multi-tenanted i.e. multiple schools in one database. (remember I am not talking SIMS - we are not in the cloud)
    Phil,
    Fair enough and my apologies. I thought you guys had a cloud MIS offering as I live in Bedford and keep seeing Capita advertising for someone to herd clouds locally.

    I think my statement about SLAs can still stand if you change where I said "you" to "a general cloud MIS provider", if you see what I mean. A cloud-hosted MIS system is really no different to a locally hosted MIS or other CRM-style app.

    As for cloud providers being multi-tenanted, that's something I would regard with horror. I know we need direct 'back-end' access to the tables storing our data in our MIS system and therefore any solution that had us sharing a database either wouldn't fit our needs or would be running a massive risk.

    This comes back to what I've said about cloud and virtualisation in the past - nothing magic happened just because someone said "cloud" or "virtual" during a meeting. A MIS product is still a MIS product no matter where it's hosted in the same way that Microsoft's Office 365 product is essentially 'just' Exchange, SharePoint and Lync hosted by Microsoft instead of the customer.

    If I connect directly to the database behind any product and run DROP DATABASE then that's not the vendor's fault, especially if I was warned about it (provided, of course, that all the info in the DB was mine)... That doesn't change just because something is hosted in the cloud, though I don't doubt some people who didn't get the "cloud's not magic" memo would disagree :-(
    Last edited by Roberto; 16th February 2014 at 08:17 PM.

  13. #27

    matt40k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Ipswich
    Posts
    4,375
    Thank Post
    368
    Thanked 635 Times in 517 Posts
    Rep Power
    157
    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    There is also the issue of how do you control how much x third party thrashes the server or services if tapping directly into the database, regardless of they are core tables or not. What if x third party wants to poll every 10 seconds for the entire database which in a new cloud installation could be for an entire LA so 100000 kids full records...
    When your working in the cloud, your paying for every single resource, read are cheap as it'll all be in memory (with any luck), writes are expensive. So maybe I should have said cost of space + change frequency. You'd make sure you have limits on everything, even your own services - things like querying the school name shouldn't happen every 10 secs, checking for messages you would, but you wouldn't use sql tables, you'd use queues. Anyway I digress into the future. Be interested in your findings we all know about the sluhore that is SIMS but be interested to hear how the other MIS provider fair when it comes to getting at the data.



    Quote Originally Posted by PhilNeal View Post
    (remember I am not talking SIMS - we are not in the cloud)
    I might get this framed - if only I could find that post where you were trying to tell us it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    If I connect directly to the database behind any product and run DROP DATABASE then that's not the vendor's fault, especially if I was warned about it (provided, of course, that all the info in the DB was mine)... That doesn't change just because something is hosted in the cloud, though I don't doubt some people who didn't get the "cloud's not magic" memo would disagree :-(
    If it's managed and in the cloud and you got access to the raw tables, you certainly wouldn't have access to drop the database. Still I know what you mean, if it's been designed correctly it'll be all container-ed, however I suspect some companies won't have. It's one of the reasons Office365\Azure was forked from Office\SQL server.

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. looking for work - MIS Data Manager - Derby
    By melvil in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11th April 2008, 02:38 PM
  2. Extracting data from an MIS
    By MikeBostock in forum MIS Systems
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 27th February 2008, 09:18 PM
  3. Making effective use of data held in an MIS
    By MikeBostock in forum MIS Systems
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 9th October 2007, 07:17 PM
  4. SIMS/MIS Data Manager
    By SpecialAgent in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10th July 2007, 11:49 AM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 16th November 2006, 09:55 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •