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MIS Systems Thread, SIMS & MSI in Technical; Ok so if SOLUS3 really can deploy msi then I really can't see any argument left against msi. Those of ...
  1. #136

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Ok so if SOLUS3 really can deploy msi then I really can't see any argument left against msi.
    Those of us who want to use our own deployment tools are happy and so are those who want to use the capita propriety system.
    Everyones a winner right?

  2. #137

    vikpaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Ok so if SOLUS3 really can deploy msi then I really can't see any argument left against msi.
    Those of us who want to use our own deployment tools are happy and so are those who want to use the capita propriety system.
    Everyones a winner right?
    AND, for all those, for whom deployment methods are too much to think about, they can just double click the MSI!

  3. #138

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Ok so if SOLUS3 really can deploy msi then I really can't see any argument left against msi.
    Those of us who want to use our own deployment tools are happy and so are those who want to use the capita propriety system.
    Everyones a winner right?
    Precisely! Why make a huge segment of your customers annoyed by not catering for them, because another segment doesn't have whatever system in place.

    Also, saying that most primaries don't have an active directory or similar is kinda of out of date now. If they don't have such a system, then in my experience they only have 1 or 2 machines with SIMS.net installed anyway! So, any form of deployment system would be overkill, other than 'double click this file'.

  4. #139

    matt40k's Avatar
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    Right, let’s go back to basics. I can’t decide if people are arrogant and think Capita (Children Services) are the devil and every step they take is therefore wrong, think they know everything, misinformed or stupid.

    I have over 7 years working experience in ICT education sector, the first few years was doing what you do [name] and yes, educational software is terrible, it has at least got better in recent times. It is however, still a long way off being perfect. This is RM has a business and why CentraStage is very getting very popular. I general spent my time supporting SIMS however I do support other applications. I have wrapper software as .MSI and even created .MSI for applications from scratch, I even did it for SIMS before I found out the hard way it’s not the best way to do it (multiple environments – we’ve only got rid of IE6 last year across the board – less then easy when not every school has a technician). I don’t now, we’ve got a dedicated team to do it via SMS (yes, old version –licensing before you ask), all I do is give them the information they need and they do it, faster and better then I could do it.

    If you’re excepting one method of deployment, you’re in the wrong job. Period. Generally in a school doing the admin network (so Office staff), I would expect to see, Windows OS, MS Office, SIMS, Print control and antivirus. Teachers will generally have a lot more software – itac, vlc player, quicktime, flash, shockwaves and so on. I would expect Windows and Office updates to be managed by WSUS, SIMS by SOLUS3 (or at least in the future), antivirus by AV console and everything else by MSI deployments over AD. Let’s face it however, this isn’t going to happen, not everything will MSI nicely, I don’t wait AV putting up a new package every 4 hours, so stuff just won’t work, don’t know why, don’t care. If it’s going to take longer to fix it as an MSI and I must use it (normally they’ve bought it before asking IT), I’ll stick it in a mapped drive (Tools), then install it ”manually”. It isn’t worth wasting hours MSI a application that only needs to be installed on 1 or 2 machines which takes 30secs to run.

    The reason I recommend using SOLUS3? Because it’s what Capita recommend. Period.

    Capita have a dedicated team for doing this stuff, they’re trained and up-to-date on it. If fact they are Microsoft Windows 7 approved – https://www.microsoft.com/windows/co....net&os=32-bit.The fact one of the main things for the Windows 7 logo is deployment, MSI being the big “you must, unless...”. Now how do you think Capita got around this one eh? Maybe MSI wasn’t the best option!

    If you think SIMS is just a SQL database with a .net application on the workstation – you’re wrong. If you think just schools use SIMS – you are wrong.

    We have a server that hosts about 30 databases, each will end up with different versions of SIMS – basically we collect, store and maintain the school once they’ve closed – Middle and Academys. Now as the financial data is no longer being amend we no longer get support from Capita, so we can’t upgrade to the latest version anymore. In about 5 years time, we’ll have over 100 databases, being used concurrently by multiple people using different database on multiple database versions. Now would someone like to tell me how I could do this if SIMS was an MSI? SOLUS3 will be point-and-click, ie new update, deploy, done. I doubt the MSI method would be as simple.

    Ok, so maybe you’re thinking, hey, that’s your problem, true, it is. But SOLUS3 has a number of features that MSI over AD won’t have. For starters, my p2p schools will be able to use SOLUS3 – I won’t have to play Microsoft a shed load of money for AD CALs. Believe it or not, alot of small primaries have a buffalo linkstation for curriculum and a few admin pcs linked together in a p2p network. It works and it’s cheap and with SOLUS3, we can centrally manage it so the office staff can just get on and work. Again this may not really bother you. You mean people

    So let’s put this into an nice secondary school example.

    I have a two servers (I may have more, but not as far as SIMS goes), one is called SVR-DC1, it runs Active Directory, DNS, DHCP for the entire school and the other is SVR-MIS, it runs SIMS and all it’s junk. I have 20 admin desktops and 70 admin laptops (admin is defined as running SIMS). I have a single domain and a single IP address range.

    My SIMS server - SVR-MIS is running SOLUS3, all my admin machines have the SOLUS3 agent installed. It may or not have been a pain . SOLUS3 is setup for my school and I have it set to auto check for updates every 30mins and to download them between 23:00 and 04:00 and is set to deploy to workstations at 06:00 -15:00.

    To day is Monday. My LA gets the SIMS Spring 12 release. They authorise it to me. Within 30mins, my SOLUS3 has alert me, by email, that’s it’s received it. At 23:00, it downloads it.

    Today is Tuesday, I have a word with the data manager, is informs me that it’s got something new and fancy, I don’t really pay much attention beyond picking up the words ASAP as I’m thinking of that bacon roll that’s sitting in the fridge and how I skip breakfast. I nod my head and say “will next Friday be ok at 5pm?”, he says it’s ok and I go off to get by roll. He then goes off happy in the knowledge that soon he will have his shinny new, what was it again? At about 14:00 his email appears telling staff about the update – oh Capita are changing the icons and the font – how nice of them, I go onto SOLUS and click the deploy update which download last night onto the server, and schedule it for next Friday at 5pm.

    Today is Wednesday. The workstations have started to download the client packages – a few of the laptops have failed, so it’s trying again. No biggy, wireless here is pants and the SIMS application seems to becoming the size of an OS.

    Roll on next Friday. Today is Friday. It’s 5pm, the server starts upgrading. I make a put the kettle on an switch on the radio. Bit later (I may have fell asleep – I didn’t say if I was remoted in or not did I hehe) I check that status on SOLUS, database upgrade, all the SIMS bits updated on the server and the admin workstations that were switched off, have booted up and upgrade too – god bless SOLUS3 and it’s WOL feature.

    Today is Monday. The staff have switched their laptops on, and SIMS has just worked or it’s had the SOLUS3 thingy say, updating, please wait – they’ve either opened up Outlook or put the kettle on. Appears SIMS runs fast as well after an upgrade too – network traffic isn’t as high – must be because it’s already deployed the update to the client pending install!

    Ok, a few failed, one’s not enough disc space – mmm... ah someone’s been editing videos!! The others are because some believes they have wireless power. Got a nice report from the central SOLUS3 console, I know who to go kick before I’ve finished my coffee\tea before they make their excuses to the lovely attendance folk about their laptops not work.

    So to summarise, downloads the packages both from Capita to the server and from the server to the workstation prior to the update, it does WOL, it gives you fancy reports, it allows to send out updated connect.ini, sims.ini and fmsconnect.ini centrally – ie if you add commandtimeout and\or change from sims sql logins to trusted windows logins, it works on with or without a Domain, it only deploy .net 4 if it’s need, it’s flexible – it deploy all the sims and the 3rd party bits, you don’t need to worry about pre-rec. – it deals with it all, regardless of installer – xcopy\wise\msi\other, it’s supported, it’s actively developed, it’s simple – ie if the bus gets you, your office manager could do it (once it’s setup). It support central hosting, terminal services, UAC etc, no additional licensing costs

    You think it closes SIMS if it’s open when it does an update – it won’t be difficult for them to add it a way of querying the logged in user of SIMS on that workstation so you have an accurate log of who’s in SIMS, they could even add in a timeout or some sort of lock. The log files are indepentent of Windows Event viewer, so you don’t have to worry about the event viewer getting full or other such problems. They’re are absolutely endless possibilities with it, the whole of idea of if this fails’, roll back or just carry on is complex outside of SOLUS3 and it’s all done with a simple front end.

    If you still can’t be bothered with SOLUS3 and you’re a secondary school, by all means, wrap the SIMS installers into an .MSI. I think you’re foolish. But it’s possible. They’re will always be certain setups that SOLUS3 won’t cope with, but just ruling out because you can’t be bothered to add a workstations into a central console and remove it when it’s off being disposed off is just plain wrong. You’re going to have to get the .ISO, uncompress it, run it, upgrade the server, confirm the servers ok, wrap the installers in an .MSI, deploy the .MSI, then wait for people to moan at you.

  5. #140

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Ok, that entire rant seems to focus on one thing - how your specific environment does things. How your LEA has 60 - 100 SIMS databases that are old (this is precisely what I would call a fringe case, so I will ignore it).

    You then describe deploying a SIMS.net update via SOLUS3. What you describe is a long process to me. Here is how it'd work with an MSI in a secondary.

    Capita have an installer MSI, which we have deployed via GPO.

    The new release comes out, and capita release a new MSI, and an MSP for upgraders.

    In the GPO we assign the MSP to the software installation GPO, telling it to upgrade the original MSI.

    Every machine in the OU with that GPO assigned to it get updated when they turn on, seamlessly as part of the boot process. If it fails (for example, if a teacher thinks it is being slow and turns it off mid-boot), then Windows knows this and next boot will roll-back the part installed patch and retry.

    Any with major problems where the end result is a failed install (eg. your video editing example) sticks an error in the event log. A simple script (or if Capita were nice) a small utility front end, which you tell which OU is the used one will then allow you to pick up all the events that didn't work.

    You're done. No need to wait for anything. No need to schedule downloads, no need to faff around, it does it and you're sorted.

    In a primary school? You don't have a domain? Fine. Just run psexec msiexec /p "\\misserver\installershare\simsupdate.msp" from a central place and bam, it updates that machine.

    So, you've still yet to convince me that using the industry standard installation method is not appropriate here. Also, your assertion that SIMS is more than a database with a client front end is wrong, that is exactly what it is. Nothing more, nothing less.

  6. #141
    Quackers's Avatar
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    I just want an MSI for the first install, i hate having 2 seperate images 1 with SIMS 1 without. Everything else is deployed with SCCM except SIMS. Infact it does not need to be an MSI, just a silent installer i can put switches on would do, maybe there is.

  7. #142
    TheScarfedOne's Avatar
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    Ok, how about we all take a deep breath here and accept that everybody has different systems and prefered methods of doing things. Just because that doesnt match with yours does not necessarily make it wrong. Some summary points...

    1. Yes, a lot of schools use MSI deployment for applications, whether that be GPO install, SCCM, FOG, WKPG or others - and it has been on a collective wishlish for some time that SIMS would move to this eventually. The silent switch options on the installers has improved over time - which is what most of us now use with our various flavors of scripting, or the above.

    2. MSI does not mean that anyone would be locked into GPO or any of the above install types. The MSI/MSP technology would would just fine on P2P networks too, it would not take much logic (which is built into MSIs) to do a "oh, old client version (on connection attempt) - so run MSP first".

    3. On to Solus 3 - it is still a *new* product, under development and there are oversights in it. That being said, they (Capita) have tried to listen to what we as customers have asked for - they just havent quite got there yet.

  8. #143

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    @matt40k As much as I have tried I simply cannot understand where you are coming from. You keep telling us that you understand how msi work but make statements that demonstrate that you don't, exhibit 1
    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    For starters, my p2p schools will be able to use SOLUS3 – I won’t have to play Microsoft a shed load of money for AD CALs
    Why would anyone have to pay MS for CALS to run an msi on a machine? You don't. Period.
    If you have a small primary school with a few p2p machines then it would actually be easier to supply that school with an msi to install/update than for them to muck about with SOLUS3.
    Right, let’s go back to basics. I can’t decide if people are arrogant and think Capita (Children Services) are the devil and every step they take is therefore wrong, think they know everything, misinformed or stupid.
    None of the above, as we keep saying we just want the industry standard way of deploying applications. If you wish to point the finger of arrogance in this matter I suggest its more suitable to swing it in the direction of Capita.
    I have over 7 years working experience in ICT education sector, the first few years was doing what you do [name] and yes, educational software is terrible, it has at least got better in recent times.
    Yes partly to educational software companies getting their act together and suppling msi.
    If you think SIMS is just a SQL database with a .net application on the workstation – you’re wrong. If you think just schools use SIMS – you are wrong.
    Ok I am genuinely interested in your explanation of why SIMS is special.

  9. #144


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    Quote Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
    I just want an MSI for the first install, i hate having 2 seperate images 1 with SIMS 1 without. Everything else is deployed with SCCM except SIMS. Infact it does not need to be an MSI, just a silent installer i can put switches on would do, maybe there is.
    thats the thing if solus 3 can install all updates patches etc (like wsus for instance) can i have the solus 3 installer as an mis so i can get sims on a pc without having to go find it (as i am generally in a school once a week its unrealistic to get it installed if im not there). As to some users needing a more complex system because they have 100+ databases well fine but it suggest you are a bigger minority than primarys without an ad server and tools in place to deploy msi's and in most cases (to my knowledge) all the end user needs is enough of sims to fill in a register and as sims is as far as im aware an sql backend is there any reason why at least this function couldnt be made to work in a web browser (again assuming an ad system and iis being able to be set to only alow users in group x access)

    any yes there is other software out there that dosent have msi installers or an easy way to deploy BUT id suggest that being a "mission critical" app sims needs it more than say tizzys toybox

  10. #145

    matt40k's Avatar
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    Ok, I give up, clearly SMS and other tools are pointless, MSI over AD or manually runing MSI is perfect for everything and everyone. Microsoft is wrong, Capita is wrong, I am wrong. Personally your standing the in way of progress.

    Most of the schools are primary schools, they don't leave they're machine on overnight and they don't have admin rights. SOLUS will boot them up, upgrade them (as the s3agent has admin rights) and do it from a central control panel regardless of AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    In a primary school? You don't have a domain? Fine. Just run psexec msiexec /p "\\misserver\installershare\simsupdate.msp" from a central place and bam, it updates that machine.
    You've just basically discribed what SOLUS3 does.

    What your describling @localzuk is deploying SIMS over AD yes? But manage it from a central console? Yes? So it pulls all the data together. Well wouldn't a SQL database make sense? Yes? Now what about doing something so if you don't have a AD, it works? Yes? Mmm... sounds like SOLUS3 to me.

    You're after the SOLUS3 agent - an MSI, then deploy it over AD.

    SOLUS3 will in time, manage your backups, import files, reports, hopefully upload data to Capita and maybe do scheduled tasks - b2b, archive attendance marks, scheduled reports.

  11. #146


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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    Ok, I give up, clearly SMS and other tools are pointless, MSI over AD or manually runing MSI is perfect for everything and everyone. Microsoft is wrong, Capita is wrong, I am wrong. Personally your standing the in way of progress.
    Exactly how I felt following this discussion

  12. #147

    matt40k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Every machine in the OU with that GPO assigned to it get updated when they turn on, seamlessly as part of the boot process.
    You also missed out the fact SOLUS will download the package to the workstation prior to the installation date, so when it comes to installing it, it just installs rather then pulling down the installer and then installing and it will (WOL) wake up any machines that are switched off - assuming x y z.

    So whilst your uses are sitting waiting for the login box, SOLUS3 users will be in Windows, either using SIMS or at least other Windows applications and SIMS will be useable in a few mins.

  13. #148

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    Ok, I give up, clearly SMS and other tools are pointless, MSI over AD or manually runing MSI is perfect for everything and everyone. Microsoft is wrong, Capita is wrong, I am wrong. Personally your standing the in way of progress.

    Most of the schools are primary schools, they don't leave they're machine on overnight and they don't have admin rights. SOLUS will boot them up, upgrade them (as the s3agent has admin rights) and do it from a central control panel regardless of AD.
    In terms of user numbers, secondary schools have a larger number of installations of SIMS.net, regardless of how many primary schools there are. That's the first thing.

    Secondly, NO-ONE IS SAYING OTHER TOOLS ARE BAD! We are saying that MSI is the preferred way of doing things for a large number of us, and that particular tool actually works in the majority of other installation tools also, SMS, Tivoli, Scripts, SOLUS3 etc... They can all use MSI, so why not use MSI!?!

    You've just basically discribed what SOLUS3 does.

    What your describling @localzuk is deploying SIMS over AD yes? But manage it from a central console? Yes? So it pulls all the data together. Well wouldn't a SQL database make sense? Yes? Now what about doing something so if you don't have a AD, it works? Yes? Mmm... sounds like SOLUS3 to me.
    I might be describing what SOLUS3 does, but as I have said about 20 times, it is NOT necessary. Windows has all of that built in already. Why reinvent the wheel??

    You're after the SOLUS3 agent - an MSI, then deploy it over AD.
    No, I want to not need SOLUS3.

    SOLUS3 will in time, manage your backups, import files, reports, hopefully upload data to Capita and maybe do scheduled tasks - b2b, archive attendance marks, scheduled reports.
    I don't want SOLUS3 managing backups. Our backup solution does that. I don't want it managing scheduling tasks. Scheduled tasks does that. SIMS.net should stick to its own job, managing its own data. Managing the installation and external stuff is the job of the network systems put in place by the customer.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    You also missed out the fact SOLUS will download the package to the workstation prior to the installation date, so when it comes to installing it, it just installs rather then pulling down the installer and then installing and it will (WOL) wake up any machines that are switched off - assuming x y z.

    So whilst your uses are sitting waiting for the login box, SOLUS3 users will be in Windows, either using SIMS or at least other Windows applications and SIMS will be useable in a few mins.
    Useful for the 100 laptops that aren't on the network when this happens. We most certainly don't want laptops installing things when they're not onsite!

  14. #149

    matt40k's Avatar
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    Out of interest, how many people are moaning about SOLUS3 have Firefox and Chrome - do you push out updates via MSI? Same question re: AV? Just a thought. Maybe it you should think of SOLUS3 as SIMS and the bits that hang off it like SIMS, FMS and Discover as the data managers problem - maybe not (data manager + installing software = bad monday).

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Useful for the 100 laptops that aren't on the network when this happens. We most certainly don't want laptops installing things when they're not onsite!
    Sorry, I haven't explain this well. Monday I deploy it, Friday it installs it. It will only do what it's told from the DS. The DS will push the installer to the workstation, say on Monday, then on Friday, once it's checked with Capita that it's still a valid, deploy it to the DB, assuming it's the DB fine. Then tell the workstation to install it. The workstation won't install it by it's self, the s3agent is just a listerner, it's not intelligent, that's the DS.

    The bit about backups is re sql backups, ideally I keep a set on top of the backup exec set - JIC, this includes the one it does before an upgrade. These are standard MSSQL backups. It isn't going to write to tape move across the network or whatever. It's just a SIMS backup, not a backup backup (if that makes sense).

  15. #150

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt40k View Post
    Out of interest, how many people are moaning about SOLUS3 have Firefox and Chrome - do you push out updates via MSI? Same question re: AV? Just a thought. Maybe it you should think of SOLUS3 as SIMS and the bits that hang off it like SIMS, FMS and Discover as the data managers problem - maybe not (data manager + installing software = bad monday).
    We use chrome here. We could very well disable updates, however they are not an issue, as there is no database side to update, there's nothing to deploy, there's nothing to schedule. IIRC one of the version updates came to 18kb in size.

    Sorry, I haven't explain this well. Monday I deploy it, Friday it installs it. It will only do what it's told from the DS. The DS will push the installer to the workstation, say on Monday, then on Friday, once it's checked with Capita that it's still a valid, deploy it to the DB, assuming it's the DB fine. Then tell the workstation to install it. The workstation won't install it by it's self, the s3agent is just a listerner, it's not intelligent, that's the DS.

    The bit about backups is re sql backups, ideally I keep a set on top of the backup exec set - JIC, this includes the one it does before an upgrade. These are standard MSSQL backups. It isn't going to write to tape move across the network or whatever. It's just a SIMS backup, not a backup backup (if that makes sense).
    When does it matter when the file is copied to the machine? Copying a file across a network takes hardly any time at all, so it makes little difference.

    Fine, you want to have 2 sets of backups, it makes little sense to do that to me. Do you carry around a boot-full of spare tyres also?

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