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Mac Thread, iPad in schools in Technical; Originally Posted by enjay How about schools which don't currently have 30 laptops in every classroom or a system of ...
  1. #31
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjay View Post
    How about schools which don't currently have 30 laptops in every classroom or a system of pupil laptops, where the choice is between introducing netbooks or introducing iPads?
    We don't have netbooks or laptops (save a handful which some of our special needs kids have, as they have one to one tuition, so we have laptops for them for convenience, not progress).

    Why do we need to make a choice to introduce them? There is no viable reason to do so. We have suites of desktop machines that do a perfectly adequate job.

    Why is their a need to make a choice for a technology that is in a different format to that which is already likely in place but does exactly the same thing at increased cost?

  2. #32

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    We don't have netbooks or laptops (save a handful which some of our special needs kids have, as they have one to one tuition, so we have laptops for them for convenience, not progress).

    Why do we need to make a choice to introduce them? There is no viable reason to do so. We have suites of desktop machines that do a perfectly adequate job.

    Why is their a need to make a choice for a technology that is in a different format to that which is already likely in place but does exactly the same thing at increased cost?
    The reason is simple - schools are supposed to be moving to a more 'personalised' learning style, with children having access to VLE's both in school and out. Integrating IT into lessons in more than the old fashioned 'book a computer room' or 'watch the teacher lecture' way.

  3. #33
    enjay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    Why do we need to make a choice to introduce them? There is no viable reason to do so. We have suites of desktop machines that do a perfectly adequate job.
    One desktop machine per pupil? That's a lot of suites! Also, netbooks can be taken on field trips, or used for part of the lesson and then put away, which is especially useful for people with specialist rooms such as Technology or Science, even more so PE.

  4. #34
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The reason is simple - schools are supposed to be moving to a more 'personalised' learning style, with children having access to VLE's both in school and out. Integrating IT into lessons in more than the old fashioned 'book a computer room' or 'watch the teacher lecture' way.
    Like I have said before, when we have to absolutely make that decision, we will. As it stands at the moment, if I absolutely had to make that decision right now, it wouldn't be a netbook or an ipad. It would be a conventional laptop.

  5. #35
    Jamo's Avatar
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    Now I know where the billions of wasted government money goes


  6. #36
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjay View Post
    One desktop machine per pupil? That's a lot of suites! Also, netbooks can be taken on field trips, or used for part of the lesson and then put away, which is especially useful for people with specialist rooms such as Technology or Science, even more so PE.
    I am not saying that we have one desktop per student, don't be so ridiculous.

    Neither am I saying that laptops/etc aren't useful in the scenarios you provide. What I am saying, is that I don't believe in progress for progress sake when whatever infrastructure is in place is more than adequate. If there is justification for 'specialist' use, i.e. field trips, science labs etc, and specific equipment is required, then absolutely go for it, but don't buy 30 iPad's to do the same job that a suite of PC's (or Mac's) can do, inventing a seemingly plausible cause for doing so to those who are swayed by the attraction of gadgets.

    As for netbooks being used for part of a lesson, what is wrong with shutting down a desktop PC or simply turning the screen off, something which would be a lot quicker than shutting down and packing away a netbook. You are inventing typical "it would be so much better" scenarios which actually aren't if you took a minute to think about it.
    Last edited by theeldergeek; 11th May 2010 at 12:49 PM.

  7. #37

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theeldergeek View Post
    Why do we need to change something that works? Victorian values aren't a bad thing, why do we need to move on from them? It's OK for people to say "we really must move on", but they don't say why. Progress or progress for progress sake? I'm always willing to accept change, just as long as it isn't change for the sake of change. If that change will result in a better way of doing things, then I'm all for it.

    I'm not convinced (yet) that the introduction of portable learning devices into schools is a better way of doing things.
    The reason is that society progresses in the way that you seem to dislike. There was no 'need' for cars to be invented - horses got people around just fine, but they were and they took over because they allowed more out of life than horses ever could. I can easily give more examples too. Its the same with technology and gadgets. You see iPads and netbooks as a replacement to current technologies and that's it. They could be so much more.

    Kids will be using these devices constantly outside of school, in future jobs etc... Schools are supposed to be teaching the skills needed for later life. Avoiding them simply because they cause the tech team more hassle, or because they will have a high damage/theft rate is not the best course of action IMO. Figuring a way of how these devices could be integrated into the curriculum, so that they aren't just a 'ooh, shiney!' and gimmicky will allow their better use by the kids out of school also.

  8. Thanks to localzuk from:

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  9. #38
    Jamo's Avatar
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    A horse cant travel at 80mph down the M5. They are popular becuase there is a need for them. Can you honestly say there is a NEED for these expensive items in schools? Will they be using them to write on instead of books? What happens when a pen goes through the screen and it needs to be replaced? Replace a 1 pound book? Ah no its a 300 pound screen which you can ONLY get from Apple.

    Show me something the iPad can do better and I will retract my comments. And paper weight or comedy sized phone don't count.

  10. #39

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    As a matter of interest, how many of the handheld & portable technologies that have come and gone in the last 10 years have made any real impact in schools?

    I can remember when PDAs where the 'in' thing.... then we have had Tablets,UMPC, iPod, iPad, netbooks..... but how many of these have been adopted successfully on any sort of scale by industry, never mind schools?

    We use laptops in my school, as well as desktops. The laptops were bought because they could be used in classrooms that were too small for desktops.... my new BSF school will probably have mostly netbooks, because these are even smaller & take up less storage space. They will be used as desktop/laptop substitutes..... so much for innovation......
    Last edited by broc; 11th May 2010 at 01:03 PM.

  11. #40

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamo View Post
    A horse cant travel at 80mph down the M5. They are popular becuase there is a need for them. Can you honestly say there is a NEED for these expensive items in schools? Will they be using them to write on instead of books? What happens when a pen goes through the screen and it needs to be replaced? Replace a 1 pound book? Ah no its a 300 pound screen which you can ONLY get from Apple.

    Show me something the iPad can do better and I will retract my comments. And paper weight or comedy sized phone don't count.
    There was no NEED for cars when they were invented. There is now, as we have created a need for them! Motorways didn't exist when cars were invented. People were quite happy to take trains for long distance travel, with horse/coach trips to the stations. Goods were shipped via the sea, by canal, or by train. Again, no NEED for cars.

    Cars were invented at first as a gimmicky gadget for the rich to own - to allow them to drive around and be prestigious. It was only once it became clear of the advantages of cars that other companies started tinkering and making them. Once they became really popular, motorways were invented and implemented to allow cars to move around faster.

    You are trying to say that we should only use things which have an actual NEED now, rather than what I (and others) are saying which is that these devices may not have a NEED now, they will instead end up having one in a few years time when more people use them, so we as schools should be looking at ways to use them, and to get the most out of them with the minimum of fuss within our classrooms.

    Also, why on earth doesn't paper weight count? I remember in my secondary school, I would be carrying an average of 3000 pages of books into school with me each day, to put in my (school paid for) locker. I would need a couple of minutes between lessons to go out of my way to visit my locker to collect books, then go to my lesson - with every start or end of a lesson involving a couple of minute 'waiting' time for pupils to turn up. The books were also paid for by the school - and I'm sure you should know, big text books aren't cheap. All our notes were done on paper provided by the school also, again more cost. Something like a netbook, personal laptop or ipad would mean having the latest version of a book available on screen as soon as the pupil turned it on, they could store their work on it, or access it on the school VLE. A teacher could set a test on the VLE and the pupils could all do it there and then via their device, with the teacher being able to give out results much faster than before.

    So, why specifically do you think iPads and similar devices are a bad idea in schools?

  12. #41

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    As a matter of interest, how many of the handheld & portable technologies that have come and gone in the last 10 years have made any real impact in schools?
    Many devices brought out a few decades back were done so at a time premature for most areas of society. The infrastructure to support them was not there. 3G phone networks are pretty recent, decent wifi coverage and speed is recent.

    I'll give an example of a technology that was launched way before its time - Microsoft WebTV/MSN TV. This was launched before broadband had appeared, meaning it was streaming low quality video over dialup connections. The idea itself, streaming TV, is not a bad one - as can be seen now by the multitude of on demand TV technologies in use in homes and in schools (there are regular posts on this forum on how best to implement a video library for on demand access via classroom PCs) - but the timing was way off.

  13. #42
    Jamo's Avatar
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    Put it simply. Cost. Are we prepared as a nation to fund all schools to have iPads for all pupils? And for there to be a REAL way of getting these devices repaired / serviced? A lot of thought gets put into these ideas of laptops for pupils, but then no thought into the aftercare. Who fixes them if they go wrong, who pays? If again they are only for the rich as the parents have to pay then again we have a divide in society.

    Books and paper works, we are just beginning to scratch the surface with things like VLE's so why don't we concentrate on one thing at a time and do it well rather than have a system where loads of things can be done but not very effectively and cost efficient.

  14. #43
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    I'll much happier when mobile devices are the solution to a properly identified problem. This can be school specific though, we only currently provide internet via wifi as the site is not fully covered yet, but do allow sixth form and staff to use a wireless device - laptops, ipod, netbooks.

    There *can* be additional costs involved, we provide the service via an interface on a smoothwall box. Should we wish to provide services from a windows box then additional CALs or external connectors would be required.

    Do people know that windows server needs a CAL/EC for providing a DHCP address for example? (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserv...-faq.aspx#cals)

  15. Thanks to DMcCoy from:

    oxide54 (12th August 2010)

  16. #44
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    The reason is that society progresses in the way that you seem to dislike. There was no 'need' for cars to be invented - horses got people around just fine, but they were and they took over because they allowed more out of life than horses ever could. Its the same with technology and gadgets. You see iPads and netbooks as a replacement to current technologies and that's it. They could be so much more.

    Kids will be using these devices constantly outside of school, in future jobs etc... Schools are supposed to be teaching the skills needed for later life. Avoiding them simply because they cause the tech team more hassle, or because they will have a high damage/theft rate is not the best course of action IMO. Figuring a way of how these devices could be integrated into the curriculum, so that they aren't just a 'ooh, shiney!' and gimmicky will allow their better use by the kids out of school also.
    You seem to be taking my comments out of context. I don't dislike the way society progresses, indeed, I embrace the changes in technology which are for the better.

    What I do dislike, is money wasted on 'must have' ideas which aren't in actual fact quite so 'must have' after all.

    Why do we have to "figure out" a way these things can be integrated into the curriculum? You are inventing a reason for them to be used rather than a reason for them to be invented.

    "Here's my new device. I call it 'internet whizz bang thingie'. Now I just have to figure out what to use it for".

    Where fools rush in...
    Last edited by theeldergeek; 11th May 2010 at 01:19 PM.

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  18. #45

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    I believe someone already mentioned 'access to VLE' is becoming a requirement, a device that has 'all day' battery life and can do this task is definitely going to be useful in a school (atom/ARM netbook or ipod touch/ipad). The amount of flaming on these forums is shocking and the amount of Apple trolling is even more despicable...

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