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Mac Thread, Whole school to go Mac? in Technical; The longevity of the newer intel based mac gear can't really be fully assessed as yet given that they have ...
  1. #31

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    The longevity of the newer intel based mac gear can't really be fully assessed as yet given that they have only been on the platform for 3 years. No one truely knows how well these will hold up in the long run as the timelines simply do not exist yet. Assuming the new trend to efficiency in the Windows line the lifecycle of the two will probably be very compareable.

    The resale aspect is a bit of a white elephant as it relys on the gear still being serviceable after surviving in a school for five years. In some places this is easy, not so in others. The only reason for the higher resale value is scarecity and brand loyalty, as more and more macs are sold the resale value will drop. An old mac is still an old bit of technology and will be slow with new stuff just like any other pc. There is also the matter of the cost of reselling them, how much effort is it going to take to clean them all up and what about the legal aspects of selling the gear and possible money handeling issues. All of this detracts from what you get back even before you take into account the initial price premium that you must still pay back let alone additional repair cost and difficulty.

    As to the form factor, have you seen the hp touchsmart, it includes a 22" touchscreen and very impressive hardware integrated. The compact form factor is not limited to Apple at all.

    The greater value from two OS options excuses is also a fun one, first off to use most school apps you need to buy windows for it anyway and maybe a copy of paralells to mesh it smothly. Yes you get two OSs but you can choose from enumerable different OSs on a PC, even MacOS if you are ethicly flexible. Really you end up paying the premium for the mac along with extra for windows just to get to the two OS point and all of the 'free' apps start to look a little more expencive. You could just get PCs and spend a little of the money that you save on additinal professional software to bridge any percived gap. Given the expantion of Linux it is probably just as benifitial to have that on the computers as MacOS.

    The sole area where Macs are supperior at the moment is the use of an EFI instead of a BIOS. Ironicly this is actually intel technology that Apple was the first to implement as they have the benifit of dictating to their customers rather than the other way around.

    In summation I find very little compelling evidence to suggest that Macs are a wise investment in a school as with limited resources there are more efficient options avalible. Of course many schools jump from shiny object to shiny object and do not consider value for money over the percived benifits of a crisp shiny white surface.

    /Rant /Opinion
    Last edited by SYNACK; 31st March 2009 at 03:40 PM.

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  3. #32
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesb View Post
    Actually I tell a lie. A pen through a TFT screen for a PC means a new screen. If you've got an all-in-one Mac on the other hand...
    that's a userbase problem you have there predominently . Although i do concede the flexibility of being able to replace a screen rather than the baby out with the bathwater alternative. I think your biggest problem there is having people feel *they* own the equipment, that it's there's and they are using it to do cool stuff. If that message get's across you'll perhaps see less of the pen through a glass screen [and pigs might fly..i know i knw], and anyway if you took the attitude of expensive stuff's going to get damaged let's play safe, you wouldn't invest in anything expensive that doesn't lend itself to componentized repair/replace. But i guess that's a more 'hearts and minds' thing we are talking about there. It's also why i'd favour a phased targeted introduction of the machines rather than complete replacement because of the valid TCO arguments.


    Gimme £50 to throw a few upgrades at some PCs rather than going through the hassle of trying to sell them off. In fact with a good upgrade program I don't see any need to retire them at all.
    i've never had a problem selling a mac. Much less a problem of selling an identical suite of dozens of macs. there is no 'hassle'. i see hassles a plenty in upgrading certain types of pc's. but maybe we're just differnet people, and see different hassles.


    How does the environment its going to be in make any difference at all? Most likely it'll still be in a classroom, or in an office, but either way there's no specific advantage to Macs in these situations.
    i'd have to disagree, i think that macs do lend themselves to being more versatile in where they can be placed, sourcing power, cable mgmt. Sure you can buy a device that piggies on top or an all-in-one, but the all-in-one won't be aswell designed AND also cheap at the same time.

    I'm not anti-Mac by any means, I just don't see the reason for replacement in this case rather than using the funding to add a new suite with Macs, space permitting. In fact as there's already a Mac suite a new Linux suite might be interesting, really give the kids a chance to experience different flavours. But the point is, why rip out a perfectly good, functioning network of cheap, easily repairable, easily upgradable machines and replace them with pricey all-in-ones where the repairs require special tools simply to get the boxes open, on which large bits of your software probably won't run, or isn't supported (SIMS, as far as I'm aware, is not supported on Parallels, that's gonna sting if it goes wrong).
    yep, if it ain't broke. I subscribe to that, but if it is broke i'd see little advantage in replacing pc for pc. Repurposing pc is a good idea, but if i was replacing i'd go mac.

    Anyway, nice having this debate with you and it not degenerating into a flame war, i don't think either of us are that partisan. I don't have apple stock[as in shares] so i couldn't care less what people buy but i like to debunk some of the tired old pro pc arguments which just don't stand up to how most organisations use computers these days. And more importantly how they will use them in the future.

  4. #33
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    As to the form factor, have you seen the hp touchsmart, it includes a 22" touchscreen and very impressive hardware integrated. The compact form factor is not limited to Apple at all.
    design wise, there is little or nothing that the hp appears to add. touchscreen on a desktop is very much a 'will it or won't it' succeed techology at the moment. fair play to them for putting it on there but at those prices it's defintely not a great value proposition over a mac, seeing as the cost of the mac is what appears to be the main barrier to most.

    there's actually a free option now with Sun's desktop virtualization product for mac. and doubtless more free options will emerge. And licensing wise, schools can take advantage of volume licensing costs for putting windows on those machines. No need to go down the route of expensive retail versions. Sure, there's no advantage their over a pc, but it's a small additional cost. This all adds up because apple have upped the price of the new models, which i'm not enthused about.

    you have a point about resale value and exclusivity. But the new intel imacs have a siginificant advantage which negate somewhat the lack of rarity appeal of new macs vs previous macs, namely the ability to run windows. Which makes them a more versatile second hand purchase than the old powerpc macs.

    i guess buying a mac today your in effect taking a stab in the unknown of where you think things are headed with client machines. sure the macs aren't the only all-in-ones so they aren't unique in that respect but i still think they are the best all-round all in one, and that's not based purely on brand loyalty. the likes of sony and hp are makign a good stab, but at those prices where is the 'value' argument headed, doesn't it then become as much about brand loyalty to pc makers like sony and hp or preconceived notions about pc is better because macs are all style over substance ?

  5. #34

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Ok ... how about this for people to discuss.

    The move to macs is not just about changing the hardware, but forcing teachers and students to do things differently, changing the curriculum and giving new ideas a chance to work! There are times when the extra investment is worth it and yes, it can be considered a psychological thing, but it works. You can do the same if you move to any 'different' system. I know schools that did it when going from SIMS to CMIS, SIMS to SIMS.Net, Windows 98/NT to Windows XP/2003, MS Office to Open Office, Open Office to MS Office ... you get the picture.

    Phased intoriduction is the best approach, one department at a time. They can redesign their curriculum around it as they get the machines.

    Storage can be Windows servers with no problem and rather than Parallels you could use your blades for Terminal Servers / Citrix to run Windows apps if needed. Terminal Services will do fine for SIMS too, and anyone wanting to run Windows as their dominant setup in the office (there will be some) can use Boot Camp too.

    Mac Servers are a must of course, but I would tend to go for NAS / SAN for storage, and a MacPro is better than an XServer IMHO anyway.

    I prefer a mix of machines so that people get a variety of hardware / software but Intel Macs and Boot Camp have this covered, but there is greater cost.

    An example of one school in Derbyshire where there was a Mac Fan, they were about 50/50 but the teachers asked the Head to go completely Mac ... this was a few years back now and since he has moved on they are back to being 50/50 (changes of curriculum and the cost of the upgrade program meant it was more cost effective to run 50/50 between Apple and non-apple hardware) ..

    Also speak to ASEs to find schools who are completely Mac and find out why, what problems they have (most techies are brutally honest, let's face it!) and what difference it makes.

  6. #35
    budgester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Yikes, better hope he doesn't take up any other crazy religions otherwise you'll end up having to teach ritual animal sacrifice as a course as well.
    That would be if he decided to go Gentoo everywhere then ?

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    That would be if he decided to go Gentoo everywhere then ?
    I always had Ubuntu down as more of an animalistic sacrifice cult.

    Gentoo strikes me more as koolaid and comet-watching.

  8. #37

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    I just spotted a post from someone saying an iMac 20" was £949.

    We pick ours up from a very large supplier for £609 with 2GB RAM.

  9. #38
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    I work at a school in Southampton, which has just gone (almost) completely Mac back in September.

    We are a school of around 450 pupils and 50 ish staff. We bought a total of 160 macs and all staff laptops and IT rooms are now mac. (With the exception of one IT resource room which is windows pc's and a 5 admin staff who still use pc's)

    Our network prior to that was on its last legs and I was asked to look at replacing everything. I'm a Mac fan and I proposed this option, along with a quote from RM and a quote from another local supplier.

    After consultation with Staff, Pupils and Governors it was agreed to go the Mac route. We got a lease contract from a supplier for the Macs for 3 years. At the end of this lease it is proposed that the computers will either bought by the school at reduced cost, or we would return equipment and replace with new Macs. The contract includes Apple Certification for me, Apple Care for all Macs and a Tech Support Contract.

    Its not been an easy and there have been issues. The main problems have been with staff and the change to a new OS and having to learn something new.

    We have also had issues with SIMS which we run with Terminal Services. This hasn't had anything to do with the macs (although staff here do seem to have the misconception that it has, and repeatably telling them that it hasn't seems to fall on deaf ears!). The problems were purely down to the new terminal server communicating with the existing SIMS server.

    Pupils have loved it! Despite having exactly the same classroom policies on damage, we've seen it drop in classroom. Last year we would have three PC's damaged on average a week. Now its down to 3 this year. That has only been one bit of graffiti and 2 keyboards with keys missing. I firmly believe that the macs are more fun to use, more reliable and look good which has made the pupils respect them more. The damage last year was due to the pupils taking out there frustrations on unreliable and very old PC's. I don't approve but that seems to be the case.

    As i said above I am Mac fan. I believe that using a Mac is a more enjoyable experience and you can achieve more with a Mac in a shorter period of time. I know that others here will not agree...

    But I'm not a Microsoft hater either and believe that Windows is essential in a school. All teachers Macbooks have VMware running XP. We have Dual Boot Macs for a couple departments to run windows based software. (MS Access for Business Studies and Pro desktop for Tech) Our IT resource room for Internet Research and Revision is also PC based. Plus Pupils benefit from using a dual system.

    The change itself has been the issue and staff learning and getting to grips with a new system has been the real issue, and it still is. But staff who were against it, who by their own admission, have said they are not confident with IT, now feel more confident using a mac than they ever did with a PC.

    I firmly believe that by this time next year, when the new system has settled and the staff have gotten used to the new macs, all of the issues we had at the start will have been forgotten.

  10. 2 Thanks to webby74:

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  11. #39

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    Macs in schools

    This has been an interesting thread.

    Over the last few years I've had to deal with a lot of Heads who get the Mac bug. As a self employed Apple ADE and an ex Apple employee, obviously I'm very pro Apple, but common sense needs to reign here.

    There is no point schools trying to do stuff on Macs like SIMS when a decent PC will do the job.
    There's no point doing a whole bunch of stuff on a Mac, if a PC will do it as well and cheaper.
    OK so you can Bootcamp a Mac, but if it's only going to be used to run Windows then its a waste of public money (if you are in a state school).

    However, Schools want Macs predominantly for iLife and the experience/empowerment that this brings. It's hard to imagine this when you use a computer and make stuff everyday, but for many inexperienced teachers the process of recording and editing a podcast and adding music and effects is mind blowing and far more satisfying in say GarageBand than the bleak GUI of Podium or the clunkness of Audacity. The fact the GarageBand is in fact Apple's Logic Pro with a Fisher Price skin is why Macs are more expensive. It is impossible for the Windows platform to produce a product like it, because Apple own the hardware, OS and Application. Apple spends so much time and money on R+D.

    Sure you can run Premier Elements and Photoshop Elements (both fine apps) but it is the integration of the creativity apps that makes the work flow a breeze. Also more importantly it just works. No special builds to run Premier or tweaked configs to run Cubase on a PC. Any Mac straight out of the box will run not only iLife but also Express and Pro (Logic/Final Cut) apps. No tweaks no fuss.

    As for spares - RAM and hard drive upgrades are the same price as they would be for a PC.
    Obviously if you go to Apple directly they won't be. The days of PC techies upgrading piles of older computers school are numbered.

    The TCO of Macs is possibly lower, but with all kit there's variables. Any Apple dealer will tell you that Apple's Pro hardware has a much lower failure rate than the consumer Macbooks/iMacs. Most schools will buy consumer hardware. The licensing costs for server/client are very attractive when stacked up against Microsoft.

    I do genuinely think an all Mac school however, would be as grim as an all PC school.

    The most recent BECTA report pushes for a mixed platform approach.

    I appreciate that many people don't have much time for BECTA, but they do gate-keep/sign off so much in terms of Academy and BSF visioning prior to procurement - and now there is a clear move to encourage a sensible mixed platform approach. So Macs are going to go much bigger in schools.

    ICT Technical folk IMHO should be encouraging teachers (and possibly in the future parents/students) to choose their own devices and be working towards a mixed economy. The iPhone version of this site being a great example of this culture (Well done whoever did it!).

    It sign posts the future which isn't 100% Mac or PC. I guess it's all about integration and common sense!
    Last edited by julianc; 2nd April 2009 at 08:23 PM.

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  13. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by birchanger View Post
    Just been given an update: the justification is the perceived longevity of Macs. He believes that PCs need to be replaced every two years or so, but Macs go on much longer.
    He is an absolute moron then. All PCs (and a Mac is a PC), require hardware refresh or upgrades to continue being useful. It doesn't matter what type the PC is (windows or mac) it will require this as the software on it gets more resource hungry.

    If that's his only justificaiton then he shouldn't be in a management post. I've no problems with Macs, however generally parents want kids using equipment at school that they're likely to use in university or in business, there aren't an enormous number of macs out there despite what Mac fans want to claim. Unless of course he's going to run XP/Vista or Windows 7 on these Macs - which would be a complete waste of money when PC hardware is generally cheaper and you'd have to multiply it by 750x.

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    Macs in schools

    This has been an interesting thread.

    Over the last few years I've had to deal with a lot of Heads who get the Mac bug. As a self employed Apple ADE and an ex Apple employee, obviously I'm very pro Apple, but common sense needs to reign here.

    There is no point schools trying to do stuff on Macs like SIMS when a decent PC will do the job.
    There's no point doing a whole bunch of stuff on a Mac, if a PC will do it as well and cheaper.
    OK so you can Bootcamp a Mac, but if it's only going to be used to run Windows then its a waste of public money (if you are in a state school).

    However, Schools want Macs predominantly for iLife and the experience/empowerment that this brings. It's hard to imagine this when you use a computer and make stuff everyday, but for many inexperienced teachers the process of recording and editing a podcast and adding music and effects is mind blowing and far more satisfying in say GarageBand than the bleak GUI of Podium or the clunkness of Audacity. The fact the GarageBand is in fact Apple's Logic Pro with a Fisher Price skin is why Macs are more expensive. It is impossible for the Windows to produce a product like because Apple own the Hardware, OS and Application. Apple spends so much time and money on R+D.

    Sure you can run Premier Elements and Photoshop Elements (both fine apps) but it is the integration of the creativity apps that makes the work flow a breeze. Also more importantly it just works. No special builds to run Premier or tweaked configs to run Cubase on a PC. Any Mac straight out of the box will run not only iLife but also Express and Pro (Logic/Final Cut) apps. No tweaks no fuss.

    As for spares - RAM and hard drive upgrades are the same price as they would be for a PC.
    Obviously if you go to Apple directly they won't be. The days of PC techies upgrading piles of older computers school are numbered.

    The TCO of Macs is possibly lower, but with all kit there's variables. Any Apple dealer will tell you that Apple's Pro hardware has a much lower failure rate than the consumer Macbooks/iMacs. Most schools will by consumer hardware. The licensing costs for server/client are very attractive when stacked up against Microsoft.

    I think an all Mac school however, would be as grim as an all PC school.

    The most recent BECTA report pushes for a mixed platform approach.

    I appreciate that many people don't have much time for BECTA, but they do gate-keep/sign off so much in terms of Academy and BSF visioning prior to procurement - and now there is a clear move to encourage a sensible mixed platform approach. So Macs are going to go much bigger in schools.

    ICT Technical folk IMHO should be encouraging teachers (and possibly in the future parents/students) to choose their own devices and be working towards a mixed economy. The iPhone version of this site being a great example of this (Well done whoever did it!). It sign posts the future which isn't 100% mac or PC its all about integration and common sense!

  15. #42
    DMcCoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julianc View Post
    This has been an interesting thread.

    As for spares - RAM and hard drive upgrades are the same price as they would be for a PC.
    Obviously if you go to Apple directly they won't be. The days of PC techies upgrading piles of older computers school are numbered.

    The TCO of Macs is possibly lower, but with all kit there's variables. Any Apple dealer will tell you that Apple's Pro hardware has a much lower failure rate than the consumer Macbooks/iMacs. Most schools will by consumer hardware. The licensing costs for server/client are very attractive when stacked up against Microsoft.
    We've had 2 Mac suites for 3 years now. Cost of replacements has been considerably higher than PCs due to the imac design. You have to take the screen out to replace the HDD, only the memory is accessible. The screen can only be taken out by destroying the EMI shielding stuck to it.

    Replacement logic board? £700 - it's got the CPU and GPU soldered on to it in some cases. Screen? £300. Keyboards £30, Mice £30.

    New keyboards don't work with 2006 imacs at boot time, apple know and don't care.

    TCO has also been higher due to the increased amount of time they need to keep running, directory service settings corruption was quite high with 10.4. CS4 refusing to work happens on 10.5.

    Theres still the myth of "Macs don't crash" which is completely untrue, they do, and applications themselves crash quite often (Logic and CS4 are persistant offenders). Along with the "they just work" - I challenge anyone who says this to read the contents of all the logs during a boot and login to AD, the appearance of working is not the same as not having any errors.

    10.5 is much improved (except the broken print sharing, disk utility, spotlight, KDC issues and OD security broken bits).

    Our single Powermac G5 power supply failed within the first few weeks, 2 Macbook Pros had dead logic boards.



    I find working with large quantitys of Macs most frustrating, it's never "WHAT is it doing" by "WHY is it doing something".


    Not a mac hater, just a frequently frustrated user (imac, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, ipod owner).

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  17. #43
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad View Post
    He is an absolute moron then. All PCs (and a Mac is a PC), require hardware refresh or upgrades to continue being useful. It doesn't matter what type the PC is (windows or mac) it will require this as the software on it gets more resource hungry.

    If that's his only justificaiton then he shouldn't be in a management post. I've no problems with Macs, however generally parents want kids using equipment at school that they're likely to use in university or in business, there aren't an enormous number of macs out there despite what Mac fans want to claim. Unless of course he's going to run XP/Vista or Windows 7 on these Macs - which would be a complete waste of money when PC hardware is generally cheaper and you'd have to multiply it by 750x.
    i think that the presence of macs in university and business is on the increase, they've always been used widely in universities but obviously the situation in the uk is a little different than in the US, where apple apparently have a huge presence in the education market. But if a multinational company like google sees fit to deploy thousands of macs [not hundreds but k's] then i think you've got your answer as to it's suitability as a 'business' computer.

    the financing issue is why the previous posters experience of leasing macs is an interesting idea, extend the lease and the new apple models after three years or buy what you have at discount. not for or against that model, just something to consider if paying the apple premium up front is giving someone sleepless nights.

    tbh with the new imacs the only problems we've found are software/os related, we've had one or two troublesome issues with network home folder accounts, and sometimes i'm tempted to ditch network logins completely in favour of just logging in automatically and mounting and unmounting shares.

    and mccoy is right, applications can and do freeze, in which case it's a force quit. very occasionally the system/os freezes and the machine itself has to be powered down and then powered back up. But as said, that tends to be osx related...

    but i am a fan of the hardware and the ability to take advantage of the intel processor to run windows...but i would want to keep the osx side of things as simple as possible to avoid headaches in a network environment. although i think that side of things was worse in 10.4 than it is now in 10.5 which is much much improved, and hopefully more improved again with 10.6. What i'd love to see with the macs is an embedded hypervisor on top of which can run any choice of supported OS as a virtual machine [ram permitting]....if they could do that on the server aswell that would be awesome. It would be far more agreeable to me than fusion or bootcamp.

  18. #44
    Rozzer's Avatar
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    Wish i was lucky enough to go ALL Mac.



    Ross

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