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Mac Thread, No user serviceable parts! in Technical; Originally Posted by torledo both of those last two points are debatable.....or imo plain false. How do you know there's ...
  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    both of those last two points are debatable.....or imo plain false. How do you know there's an administrative headache if you've never administered them ?
    I have attempted to integrate OSX on to a Windows network twice before, admitidly just after 10.4 came out and then the first major service release. I thought how hard can it be, its based on a sensible OS that is claimed by apple to be able to integrate easily.

    Ha, several tutorials later and after a lot of searching through the net I still could not authenticate to the domain. You know what I got, from the 'superior' easy to use 'intuitive' OS when I tried...

    A little fisher price cutesy animation of the login box shaking side to side. No error message, no logs, nothing even remotely useful. At this point the tutorials all diverged and suggested everything from installing the full X11 payload and taking a world trip around the command line or changing a whole pack of settings and setting up another mac to monitor the first mac remotely.

    At this point having wasted many hours on this utterly intuitive and remarkably 'usable' pile of binary excretion I called the time of death on that little foray into mac 'compatibility'.

    So yes, on a Windows network at least while I was still willing to waste time trying they are a headache. If you want to run them and manage them with the ease of a Windows solution you will need a Mac server, just pray that the policies apply to the clients correctly. Or just follow the Mac code, spend more money.

    Oh you want to do something that is not on the box, get out your wallet. Oh when we said that our solution was superior we meant with this extra software we just need your wallet. Oh you closed the screen of your laptop and they keyboard melted to it, its obviously your fault for not being stylish enough to have your laptop open the whole time and so it isn't covered under warranty.....

    We'll just need your wallet!!!!

    /rant
    Last edited by SYNACK; 14th March 2008 at 10:00 PM.

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  3. #32

    mattx's Avatar
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    Our new Maintenance chap started to have a clear out last week - guess what he found gathering dust in the loft ? Yep, a load of really old Apple macs !!
    I am sooooo excited at the moment I just can't contain myself.
    Out lot our off as from Good Friday for a few weeks and guess whats also arriving ? I huge walk in skip !!
    I don't know what to do first - throw them in, place them in carefully and then smash them with a sledge hammer, set fire to them, build a tower out of them and then knock them over - anyone care to join me in a game of Apple Mac Jenga ? Hey I don't even mind loosing !!
    With that and the fact I am also dumping Sophos and rolling out Trend means I will be in extacy heaven.
    I think I'm going to explode any mintute !!!
    Can Smashing up Apple Macs and dumping Sophos be better than sex ? I'll let you know.

  4. #33
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    I have attempted to integrate OSX on to a Windows network twice before, admitidly just after 10.4 came out and then the first major service release. I thought how hard can it be, its based on a sensible OS that is claimed by apple to be able to integrate easily.

    Ha, several tutorials later and after a lot of searching through the net I still could not authenticate to the domain. You know what I got, from the 'superior' easy to use 'intuitive' OS when I tried...

    A little fisher price cutesy animation of the login box shaking side to side. No error message, no logs, nothing even remotely useful. At this point the tutorials all diverged and suggested everything from installing the full X11 payload and taking a world trip around the command line or changing a whole pack of settings and setting up another mac to monitor the first mac remotely.

    At this point having wasted many hours on this utterly intuitive and remarkably 'usable' pile of binary excretion I called the time of death on that little foray into mac 'compatibility'.

    So yes, on a Windows network at least while I was still willing to waste time trying they are a headache. If you want to run them and manage them with the ease of a Windows solution you will need a Mac server, just pray that the policies apply to the clients correctly. Or just follow the Mac code, spend more money.

    Oh you want to do something that is not on the box, get out your wallet. Oh when we said that our solution was superior we meant with this extra software we just need your wallet. Oh you closed the screen of your laptop and they keyboard melted to it, its obviously your fault for not being stylish enough to have your laptop open the whole time and so it isn't covered under warranty.....

    We'll just need your wallet!!!!

    /rant
    What?!!! Easiest way to manage osx computers would be to use osx server. Whatever next, want to manage windows xp clients ? want them to authenticate to AD ? then you'll be needing a windows 2003 server. The cheek of it.

    You do make some valid points about the pitfalls of integration in a windows environment, and managing in a pure osx environment isn't a bed of roses either. But there are administrative headaches with managing incredibly-easy-to-setup windows server 2003/xp environments. Shit, Microsoft can't even get their OWN products to play nice together - heed the xp and vista on the same network warnings.

    In terms of osx server, we've never had to purchase anything ontop of what comes pre-installed or what is also available for download from the Apple website....

    And here's some news for you.....want to do any kind of professional video work in Windows and you'll need to get you're wallet. No difference with OSX there. Last time i checked, Office 2007 and Dreamweaver CS3 weren't in the Windows 'box' either. No,What you get in the retail 'box' is a load of useless utilities that just clog up the hard drive and the desktop.

    i've recommend on numerous occasions to osx newbs to buy osx server when building a 'mac suite' or something similar....Even if it means buying the cheap as chips 10 user version on the equally cheap mac mini. Plus in the not too distant future the xserve will represent a better value proposition than ANY Dell or HP server once the creators of parallels come out with a server virtualization product that'll allow windows linux and osx on the the same box.

    The trouble is synack you've given the game away in a previous post, as to the real reasons why you're ranting about apple products.....

    you use ntbackup, so you're school is pisspoor like webman. boohoo.

    What little investment you do have means you can't do an osx environment properly. That's nothing to do with bulging wallets...more to do with priority of resources. As i've said you could have an osx server for a few machines on a mac mini for less than 600 pounds. Or you're school could invest in some osx training so that next time something 'melts' (hahahah) you can replace the part yourself, or at the very least you have a relationship with a supplier who will gladly repair it for you.... however much of a dunce you've been.

  5. #34

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    What little investment you do have means you can't do an osx environment properly
    Not wanting to start a flame session but that sort of comment is quite uncalled for - debate the MAC / PC debate issue, don't knock a school just to try and get one over.

    so you're school is pisspoor like webman. boohoo.
    Again, debate the PC / MAC issue - that sort of comment won't do you any favours at all.

    however much of a dunce you've been.
    Hmmmm - a bit OTT me thinks. I think you need one of my chill pills.

    Can I suggest a bit of fun when debating the whole PC / MAC point - like my previous post ?
    Last edited by mattx; 15th March 2008 at 08:22 AM.

  6. #35
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattx View Post
    Not wanting to start a flame session but that sort of comment is quite uncalled for - debate the MAC / PC debate issue, don't knock a school just to try and get one over.



    Again, debate the PC / MAC issue - that sort of comment won't do you any favours at all.



    Hmmmm - a bit OTT me thinks. I think you need one of my chill pills.

    Can I suggest a bit of fun when debating the whole PC / MAC point - like my previous post ?
    Unfortunately, the cost whingeing seems to come up far too often.....synack himself brought up the oft-used statements about paying extra for stuff not in the box. So what i'm saying is there is a cost element to buying windows software aswell so if finances are a bit tight that's where you're financial resources should be going - into maintaining you're windows networks. And leave the osx side of things to those of us who do make the investment every year, both in hardware, and software licensing and don't whine about the costs.

    Because for us TCO is not dissimilar to our windows network, plus our apple kit gives us greater flexibility.

    Apple are the largest hardware provider to education in the united states.....that's a pretty remarkable position given some of the comments from so called education specialists in this thread who seem to think they know a lot more a about osx and apple hardware TCO and sysadmin than Apple sysadmins in the large US and UK universities.

    Synack has actually been comparatively reasoned in this thread in his arguments. He does have a point about the apple service and support model (if that's a point he's trying to make) and i've already agreed with his comments about integrating osx into windows environments.

    But you and webman are just trolls when it comes to reasoned argument about Apple products in educatiuon. And don't try and moderate this thread when you're the one who's trying to wind people up/sh*t stir.

    Also, you're guilty of selectively quoting me out of context. And i wasn't calling anyone specifically a dunce. Just trying to make the point that if you (collective you) were to do something stupid, such as maybe spill a ribena over the keyboard, that you'd have an apple supplier who could replace it for you....more to do with relationship with supplier than Apple warranty small print. Our repairs don't go to apple....and if there is a product defect it will be repaired or replaced.

    I have much more grievance with our alleged supplier of our windows server and pc's (small company, not Dell or HP) who are completely useless despite making a nice sum when everything was supplied and installed.
    Last edited by torledo; 15th March 2008 at 09:35 AM.

  7. #36

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    But you and webman are just trolls when it comes to reasoned argument about Apple products in educatiuon.
    Not really, I like a debate about the subject matter like any other person - I just don't get personal about it - I enjoy a bit of fun in my exchanges.
    In regards to a reasoned argument about Apple in education - I've never seen any !! And I doubt I will.

    such as maybe spill a ribena over the keyboard
    I don't drink ribena. We don't allow any food or drink to be consumed near our equipment.

    Apple are the largest hardware provider to education in the united states.....
    Good for them, but we don't live in the United States - [ thank god ] - we live in the UK.

  8. #37

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: the cost. Yeah, fine, Windows comes with bugger all (Linux is a different story, however). But the initial outlay for our desktop PCs is a hell of a lot lower than if we were to start out with macs. This means we can buy the required software anyway; and probably have a higher number of machines running it.

    I think the apple fans (the human ones ) on this forum are getting a bit sentimental over the use of macs in schools, and are using any reason and argument to justify their use of macs, when standard PCs have the potential to do exactly the same.

    As to personal comments, water and duck's back... we're all friends here

  9. #38

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    when standard PCs have the potential to do exactly the same.
    And more, and better and cheaper.

  10. #39

    localzuk's Avatar
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    So, we've gone full circle, mattx and webman have ignored the fact that they are comparing cheap as chips PC's with low spec, to high spec mac's. They've ignored that windows provides bugger all extras, and OS X does. They've ignored pretty much every positive aspect of using macs, instead falling back to 'windows PC's are cheaper' over and over again, whilst throwing in the equally pointless 'getting windows to manage mac's is a nightmare, therefore mac's are a nightmare' argument.

    I'm sorry, but your arguments are simply weak. I have now got 8 mac's in my school for kids to use and a mac mini with os x server on it to manage it. Works flawlessly so far. It took about a day to set up properly, including a call to applecare as there was a small problem which they quickly solved. Also, a quick point on this, I'd never used OS X server before and picking up how to use it was easier than windows 2003 server.

    So, can we have some non-cost related arguments please? The fact that you spend too little on your workstations is not a good argument.

  11. #40

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    So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

    I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

    Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?
    Last edited by webman; 15th March 2008 at 01:55 PM.

  12. #41

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

    I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

    Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?
    Are you taking into account the fact that you have purchased licenses for windows, windows server, CALs etc? You are still not making an accurate comparison.

    A base imac: £600 + £100 AppleCare
    A server, if you're only getting 10: £300 mac mini, £200 os x server TOTAL: £500
    These imac's can run more than any standard windows pc, as they can also run windows if required.

    A comparable brand name pc: HP dc7500, £500 + £120 for a 20" in TFT + £20 for a dvd-rw drive
    A server, if you're only getting 10: HP dc7700, £300. Software: £56 (SELECT) + £40 (CAL's) + Exchange £108 + Anti-virus (Sophos) £140 PA for 10 users: TOTAL: £644

    Any other software is an extra that would have to be considered on top of either. However, taking into account that a dc7500 and a 20" TFT will take up huge amounts of space, you could probably use a smaller tft - but then it wouldn't be a suitable comparison.

    So, the difference in price seems to be the £100 apple care.

    You state in your posts, webman, that they don't add any value in your school (something I would argue about as well) but every comment before this one has been a generalised 'they're more expensive, you can do less with them' type comment. When in fact, they have roughly the same TCO and the mac's have the ability to also run windows software too, if you were so inclined to do so.

  13. #42
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    So let's say we go and buy our desktop PCs for the same price as a basic mac, ~£700. That changes nothing apart from the fact we've wasted loads of money because we get fewer machines...

    I'm not just comparing the cost! There's also the educational impact they have and the amount of people that would use them at our school. Nobody wants them, they wouldn't get used, ergo a waste of money!

    Spend over £8k on around 10 macs and the associated server and 'applecare' that would hardly be used. Or even if they were, by a select few....(very low educational benefit to students) or spend the same amount and get over 20 PCs that run all current network software that just about everybody could use (higher educational benefit)?
    Re: educational aspect, it really is important for kids in you're school to become familiar with using apple equipment and osx + apps..... I won't deny that anything you want to do on a mac can be done on a pc, but there are countless companies particularly in new media that are using macs and industry standard software such as Final Cut pro and uni's use them quite extensively.....isn't it important to sample life outside of c:

    Plus there are a lot of developers e.g the RoR lot, that prefer macs as their working environment....plus a lot of apple hardware/software solutions are really elegant.

    And i say that as someone who predominantly works in a windows environment.

  14. #43

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    Our software licences are already covered. Web based open-source email, Free Symantec AV through LEA, MS-Sponsored school (to my personal disagreement). The only software costs would be specialist software as required.

    Keeping on-topic; Our workstations are unbranded and use standard hardware which is fantastic for maintenance and if something fails. Parts can be swapped and changed to get them back up and running at minimal cost and minimal time, meaning less disruption to the users.

    I totally disagree our workstations have the same TCO as macs.

    Torldeo...

    We already know that departments don't currently want macs. No students have requested macs. Are you suggesting we waste thousands of pounds on a mac experiment just for them not to get used?

    Are you saying we should use Apple, or are you hinting at transferable skills?

  15. #44

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webman View Post
    Our software licences are already covered. Web based open-source email, Free Symantec AV through LEA, MS-Sponsored school (to my personal disagreement). The only software costs would be specialist software as required.
    None of that is free. The email system will require administration, more so than a couple of clicks in the email server in os x. The AV is top sliced money, so is actually costing you something even if you don't use it. No school in the UK should be sponsered by Microsoft, as I believe it is against european competition laws (or so I've been told by several LEA bods).

    Keeping on-topic; Our workstations are unbranded and use standard hardware which is fantastic for maintenance and if something fails. Parts can be swapped and changed to get them back up and running at minimal cost and minimal time, meaning less disruption to the users.

    I totally disagree our workstations have the same TCO as macs.
    Do you mean you build your own? You must have loads of time available to do that if you do! I wouldn't have the time to be able to build PC's.

    Or buy from a small producer? What happens if that small producer goes out of business (like many seem to be doing now).

    We already know that departments don't currently want macs. No students have requested macs. Are you suggesting we waste thousands of pounds on a mac experiment just for them not to get used?

    Are you saying we should use Apple, or are you hinting at transferable skills?
    I think what he is suggesting is that you seem to think that Apple is completely useless, when in fact it is the second largest general OS market in the world and therefore being able to teach skills which are transferrable between windows and os x would be a good thing.

    Why wouldn't they get used? Every new system that gets installed in our school is accompanied with adequate training which shows what the systems can do. So when I installed the mac's in our library, I showed the people who would use them what they can do. They are now used every single day for video editing and for other tasks.

  16. #45

    webman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    None of that is free. The email system will require administration, more so than a couple of clicks in the email server in os x.
    Yes, it costs time, that's all. Very little now it's set up just like most servers. My point about our free email server was a response to your MSexChange CAL cost you slipped into the workstation cost. And the same with AV - yeah, there isn't a charge for us, maybe it's included in our SLA - even though that is just for MIS but I know that we don't have to worry about it.

    Do you mean you build your own? You must have loads of time available to do that if you do! I wouldn't have the time to be able to build PC's.
    No, we just don't buy HP/Dell/RM and yes we buy from small manufacturers. If they go out of business, that's life. Atleast they use standard parts which we can replace ourselves. We believe the machines we buy are good value for money and we've found them perfectly fine for what we want over the past 5 years.

    Why wouldn't they get used? Every new system that gets installed in our school is accompanied with adequate training which shows what the systems can do. So when I installed the mac's in our library, I showed the people who would use them what they can do. They are now used every single day for video editing and for other tasks.
    Fantastic. Wish we had the time to learn ourselves and give training ourselves. But even the best training doesn't guarantee it's usage. Again, we're not wasting time, resources and a lot of money on something that won't get used.

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