[Millsy79]

Hi
Every so often i run a search across the pupils home areas for MP3's, wma's etc. etc. and then delete them as i have always been under the opinion that these are copyrighted tracks and it's illegal for us to have them on the computers.
I decided to run this search the other day except this time it's caused uproar. I have apparently deleted tracks that pupils had purposely brought in to include in their work. One of the teachers has stated that as the pupils are using the tracks for educational use the copyrights dont apply. Is this true? i'm still quite sure that its illegal for us to have downloaded mp3 tracks on our network.

Any help would be appreciated.

[tommccann]

Sounds illegal to me, unless there bought originally from say iTunes of ripped of a CD, educations copyrights are different and are allowed to broadcast copyrighted files i think but who's to say the mp3s are from dodgy sites, torrents etc..

[Dom_]

I set our backups to exclude .mp3 .wma etc for kids area's, you could use the same excuse if they bitch about it... At least if they're just using them on their USB's you won't get into trouble for having them on the network.

[apoth0r]

Sorry no excuse, it is illegal, the teacher has taken it upon themselves to make a 'quick fix' lesson whereby they do not need to collect materials, simply ask the kids to do it all for them. Teachers should provide the legal copies of tunes for the kids to use. It should come out of the faculty budget.
They know it isnt legal but they will moan about it anyway because it's now been made their problem.
They try it on simply.

[deanc]

it is often considered that if it is part of educational work then this is covererd as part of "fair dealing" under UK copyright law though I am by no means an expert. this is how students have always been able to include pictures from anywhere on the internet within thier work and how they can copy and paste stuff. as longs as they reference where the files have come from they should be OK.

[mb2k01]

I'd be interested to find a definitive answer on this.
We have something similar where students have brought in music and wanted (via a music teacher) to store them on an area of the network. Our current stance is that they are not permitted to do so for a similar reason to the OP, but...

The music staff are of the opinion that lots of "other" schools allow this and they believe there is some form of license exemption which allows the use of copyright music in an educational context.

The only reference to such that I have found is "fair use" or "fair dealing" which is included in UK and US copyright law which alows limited use for specific educational use - however, the exemption requires specific educational purposes to be defined and for the teacher in charge to essentially be accountable.
In other words, I'm not sure it's really something we should be relying on or expecting one member of staff to be legally accountable for!

Does anyone else have a definitive legal answer / source of info?

[deanc]

actually to be pedantic fair use is a US only thing, under UK law we have fair dealing which is a different thing.

Fair dealing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from what I can make of that if the student rips the CD themselves it is ok, if they get it from a torrent site or other then its not ok.

[mb2k01]

Originally Posted by deanc

from what I can make of that if the student rips the CD themselves it is ok, if they get it from a torrent site or other then its not ok.

I'm not sure that is correct.
My understanding was that a person buying copyright music can make one backup copy of it for their own backup purposes. Ripping to what is essentially a public network (and more than likely to a shared area which would potentially encourage sharing) is taking that a step further.

If fair dealing is applied in the situation then in the event of a claim who would be liable? The teacher for requiring it / allowing it? The Network Administrators for facilitating it? The school itself?

[Gerry]

To be on the safe side I would say no MP3/WMA etc should be stored on the network as you can't tell what's legit or not.

An alternative is they use music under the Creative Commons licence:
creative commons music - Google Search

[penfold]

Originally Posted by mb2k01

I'm not sure that is correct.
My understanding was that a person buying copyright music can make one backup copy of it for their own backup purposes. Ripping to what is essentially a public network (and more than likely to a shared area which would potentially encourage sharing) is taking that a step further.

I always thought that until last year when I was told your not allowed to make a backup copy, but the story has just been passed on with people believing this. Now I'm not sure what to believe.

When I asked about it, my understanding was that a Music Teacher has a little more leaway regarding using music as it could be used in an educational context. However, it was my understanding that this was done with the purpose of studying the musical piece or the type of music. You also need the right licences to cover playing music in a public area etc. Pupils brining things in doesn't get covered as it is not provided by the teacher and especially as you dont know where they have come from originally.

Rather than try looking through the rather grey area of UK music law and MP3 in school etc, you could incorporate the use in your AUP. I have previously took the stance of any music brought in by pupils could not go onto the network as it was not licenced to the school. Any music created by pupils/staff in school could. But this was simply because other members of staff aren't interested in copyright/breaking the law.

And the response of lots of, other schools do it so why cant we, is stupid as far as I'm concerned. Unless they can tell you how they went about ensuring they haven't broken any laws in their setup(which you can then copy) Dont leave yourself open to breaking the law because 1 member of staff says so.

[aptproductions]

I asked this question of MCPS once (the guys who make sure copyrights are in place).

The response I got was that if the track was being used for an educational purpose and has been obtained legally then this is ok, so long as it is being played from the original material (which I think means an original CD in this case).

The problem comes when you want to transfer the music from CD to another device for use in educational terms and it becomes a bit of a gray area. Generally, you should be seeking the permission of the copyright holder, but if it's purely for use in an educational setting and not to be publically displayed anywhere.

Most schools will find that for use of original material from the original source (either legal download or original CD) that they are covered to play the music out under a LEA PPL License, but you can question PPL about that directly.

For further information and to clarify the point for your own schools I recommend visting and contact the relevant authorities being:

MCPS (or PRS for Music as it now comes under) at PRS for Music
- they are for reproducing of copyright material and such things (their site explains it all)
- the phone number I was given to call and check all this on was 0208 378 7500

PPL at PPL : Home
- they are responsible for the public performance rights of material
- the phone number I was given for these is 020 7534 1423

Here is the question I initially asked and the responses I got when I first looked into this:

Originally Posted by ME

Dear Sirs

I am currently investigating the use of music on our premises with
regards to a new welcome screen we have had installed in our reception
area. Working in a voluntary radio capacity myself, I am aware of the
requirement for the various licenses that may be required for an
establishment to have such a function in place where music is used
behind photostories of our pupils.

I've been reading the advice given on your website and it says to
contact you to see if our LEA already pays for such a license on our
behalf or whether we need to investigate with the LEA as to whether
we:

a) can be added to an existing scheme or
b) have to get our own license for the premises

Originally Posted by Steve from CEFM

Good morning and thank you for your email.

I can confirm that your school holds a PRS and a PPL licence for the
public performance of music. This would cover the music coming out of
the TV.

However these licenses require the original copyrighted cd to be
played. If you are planning on putting the music onto a computer and
then broadcasted through the TV then extra licensing from MCPS and
PPL's dubbing and broadcasting department may be required.

Kind regards

Originally Posted by ME

Thanks for your response. Are you able to advise costs on the MCPS and PPL Dubbing licenses as the staff do wish to create photostories with the children in the school and then have them shown in the reception area.

Originally Posted by Steve from CEFM

Good afternoon. Unfortunately I do not administer those copyright licenses but you can contact the MCPS on 0208 378 7500 and PPL on 020 7534 1423.

I hope this helps a bit, even though it doesn't give a definative answer it gives you where you can get one!

Andy

[AyatollahPies]

Originally Posted by Gerry

To be on the safe side I would say no MP3/WMA etc should be stored on the network as you can't tell what's legit or not.

An alternative is they use music under the Creative Commons licence:
creative commons music - Google Search

A very wise policy.

[Domino]

We've had a couple of threads about this before

Using Copyrighted music in course work

Basically you'd be much better served not allowing any MP3's unless the students/staff can prove they're copyright compliant.

The 'other schools are doing it' got thrown around a lot to me too, but its not your job to worry about other school's is it? Compliance with the law is (i'm assuming) part of your job, and while that may not extend to music files, they are being stored on your network....

The best bet would be to see if your LEA has a copyright expert, and ask what kind of licences you can get through them - although for what you're asking I think you require per publisher permissions (which is obviously nigh on unobtainable)

[maniac]

I only allow music clips of up to 30 seconds on my network, which you are allowed to use copyright free. Several members of staff have Itunes and media player setup to store music (people like the dance department who use music a lot) but these are setup to store the music on the local laptop.

I was quite astounded other day when I discovered a member of staff had a selection of music on our public drive, and was letting the kids copy it down to their home areas for use in presentations and the like - that in my mind is blatent copyright infringement as we're copying the music. When I explained it to them they were OK about it, and I'm letting the tracks remain until the end of this week when that module is complete and then they'll be going.

It is a massive gray area, as I've never found the definitive answer, as one auhority will say one thing, and someone else something completely different, so I always go on the cautious side and say no to all music on the network. Same goes for lengthy video clips and the like, even found one student with complete feature films in his home area once

Mike.

[aptproductions]

Originally Posted by maniac

It is a massive gray area, as I've never found the definitive answer, as one auhority will say one thing, and someone else something completely different, so I always go on the cautious side and say no to all music on the network. Same goes for lengthy video clips and the like, even found one student with complete feature films in his home area once

It's not up to the authorities unless they are going to pay the HUGE bills for the licenses for permitting the copying of material. For instance, a full current track I seem to remember you were looking into the £1000's to get the permission for reproducing and reworking the artists original recording, which is effectively what is being done.

In terms of being used in music / drama / dance departments, they are a bit more flexible with it, but generally the music should be played from it's original purchased location, i.e. if you bought it on a CD you're only permitted to play it from the CD unless you hold the approrpiate license to copy the music to another medium.

I'm one who thinks that so long as you have the original CD on site should PPL/PRS and the likes come knocking, you should be ok having it, so long as only one person is playing the track at once (unless you bought 20 copies of the CD in which case 20 people can play it at once).

If you want definative answers to all of this, you best port of call are the people I mentioned in my previous post as they can 1) advise you on whether you are covered for public perfomance rights (which most schools are but it's worth checking - CEFM hold the details for that) and 2) advise you if you school or authority are paying the appropriate license fees for having tracks on your system and if so, which tracks, as the tracks are licensed individually.

You can only imagine what this is like when it comes to setting up student radio stations and the licenses involved there! lol