Jokes/Interweb Things Thread, Banksy's at it again! in Fun Stuff; By the sounds of some people here, they are either religious, or Nihilistic (not atheistic), and cannot seem to find ...
18th December 2011, 08:54 AM #91
By the sounds of some people here, they are either religious, or Nihilistic (not atheistic), and cannot seem to find any form of common ground. Topics like this will continue until God is scientifically proven or disproven and currently, neither can be achieved with the level of science that we have.
18th December 2011, 10:13 AM #92
Ah, but then again, one of the things about Christianity that I have observed on a regular basis is the picking and choosing of lines of the Bible, and using them out of context. Examples being it being a sin for 2 men to lie together, yet the same person who will waffle on about that will ignore the line about using mixed fabrics.
Originally Posted by witch
I merely pull a line from the Bible that has been used in a discussion with a religious person in the past, one which they stated that science cannot prove god as he is unknowable.
18th December 2011, 03:24 PM #93
I don't think any enlightened Christian, well not the ones I know anyway, would say that God is eternally unknowable.
What on earth I am doing, arguing this, when I am a pagan, is beyond me..
I am pretty much an atheist too but then I think of how someone in say 1500 would see our world and I wonder if that is where we are when it comes to supreme beings...
18th December 2011, 07:19 PM #94
For a christian, the bible is the word of God, not a book of quotes for us to use to support our own views, predudices and arguments. Its important for a christian to learn the word of God. There are comentaries on the verse about mixed fabrics. Leviticus 19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. and Should a Christian Wear Clothing of Mixed Fibers (Leviticus 19:19)?. One interesting idea from those pages was that mixing linen and wool in a fabric results in an inferior quality fabric, so it could be interpreted as a rule against merchants ripping off customers with shoddy merchandise. I don't know enough about this verse to say for certain. There also seems to be a symbolic theme in that chapter about keeping oneself set apart from the world, being distinct from non-christians/jews. I don't mean not interacting with them, just not following the same practises that go against the bible. A christian who broke the ten commandments regularly wouldn't be very convincing. I don't believe that christians are saved by following the law though, because as humans we can't. There's something in there that we've all done wrong. We can only be saved by Christ's death on the cross. He's the only one who never broke the biblical law, and the only one who can pay the price that the law demands for failing to follow it.
18th December 2011, 09:11 PM #95
I do have a problem with that - being told that a new-born baby is a sinner - doesn't jell with the idea of a merciful and kind God, does it?
Bit evocative of snakes and ladders - or maybe being patted on the head and told to be good. I don't think God, having given us free will, would do this
18th December 2011, 10:47 PM #96
It amuses me to see people (as a whole) change what they perceive as metaphor within the Bible as time goes on and things are proved/disproved as seen fit. So if there is indeed something in the bible to suggest people shouldn't wear different types of fiber in their clothing - it's lovely and convenient that as soon as that is impracticable it's meaning is changed to metaphor or an analogy.
"Do not mate two different types of animals" - at the time of the Bible's writing that would condemn someone mating a Leopard with a Tiger to eternal damnation, yet these days (don't quote me, I'm no more a biologist than I am one who studies the Bible) we know it happens naturally and wouldn't bat an eyelid to it. So the meaning again would be twisted.
It's that twisting to suit that is what annoys me. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if the Bible suggested that anyone caught wearing a comb-over on a Wednesday should be stoned and crucified because perhaps that was how it was done at that time. There lies the irony in that how Man reads the bible is either a) reliant on their own understanding of it, being modern, much of that understanding will be "incorrect" or b) reliant on an expert's understanding of it, who's understanding will in itself be fundamentally flawed although probably slightly better depending on that expert's level of bias.
However naively we (Humanity) look at it in the "Modern Times" we either cherry-pick what we want to guide us through, apply metaphor/analogy to what isn't fully understood or applicable or ignore it entirely.
I can't begin to understand how things could be improved - if I could, I'd be a real life modern day miracle maker. It is one of many reasons why I am agnostic, and also makes me wonder how on earth we all get on relatively well. It is no wonder that many disagreements (from forum banter to global wars and conflicts) fall back on each others' interpretations.
One thing is certain though, Humanity has room to grow and many lessons can and have been learned from the past - whether they're lessons taught from The Bible or mistakes made, both as a result of The Bible or otherwise.
Much of the above is generalised as much as possible. "We" means "Humans" rather than "the people posting in this thread".
I have not read or studied the Bible other than select parts for past celebratory purposes.
This is also generalised for followers of The Bible: the same would apply for any other book of faith (Quran (sp?) etc.)
I am not judging anyone, that is not my place. The above is just stating where I lie in the "Religious Debate". I sincerely respect everyone here and everyone's particular faiths and beliefs.
18th December 2011, 11:39 PM #97
The parts you picked out are from the Old Testament Jewish Law, which doesn't apply any more (see Colossians 2:13-17). This is what causes a lot of confusion with the Bible, the Old Testament is really just background reading to give placement to what happens in the New Testament, which for Christians is the important bit. This is the view of mainstream Christianity, you do get certain parts such as the conservative evangelical movement who disagree with this and are the ones who will cherry pick sections of the Old Testament for their own reasons, this isn't mainstream though, they just have louder voices ;-)
18th December 2011, 11:51 PM #98
Cheers Those were just bits from the post previous to mine.
19th December 2011, 12:15 AM #99
The bit about mixed fibres is in the bible, twice in fact, both in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. I would also personally argue that what happens in nature is between God and the animals. The bit about mating two different animals is sometimes translated as domestic animals (farming etc), and humans attempts to make this happen. Often the original Hebrew or Greek doesn't translate perfectly into English or other languages. Words can be translated with different meanings depending on the context, and the English of the day can have different emphasis to what we might understand. Its important when critically examining the Bible to take this into account so we don't get too caught up in poetic language like the King James version, or contemporary language like The Message version of the bible. A comparison of different versions can be both helpful and confusing at different times. Often scholars will go back to the original text to see what that actually says.
Much of the bible is intended to be taken at face value. But there are also many different types of text in there. History, Laws, Prophecies, Parables, etc. Often there is a physical thing that is intended as a reminder of a historical thing like the passover festival is a reminder of when the Israelites were freed from Egypt. Sacrifices were looking forward to Jesus death on the cross, and as a reminder that God takes sin seriously, and that it has a consequence. Sometimes things in the bible arn't clear what they are, but most of the time they are.
What's important when interpreting and understanding the word is making sure that our interpretation/understanding is in keeping with the rest of the Bible, and with the character of God. When I offered a possible meaning of the mixed fabrics thing, I wouldn't at any point give the interpretation the same authority as the scripture. But the bit about not ripping customers off is in keeping with the rest of scripture, so I would say that's an appropriate way to live your life. That may or may not be what was intended originally. That verse will make for an interesting discussion in heaven. The idea of being distinct from the rest of humanity is also a biblical concept. Jesus himself talks about salt losing its saltiness and then becoming worthless - Matthew 5:13.
I think I pretty much agree with you on cherry picking scripture and twisting it to our own desires. Its not really the right way to approach scripture. There is a modern day parable of a man who wanted to get Gods advice, so he randomly opens his bible, closes his eyes and puts his finger down. That bit said "and they all went and killed themselves". Not liking that, he did it again. This time he got "Go then and do likewise". The word of God is described as a double edged sword. Its something to be treated with respect, and not just used as any other book. Its unique, even among other "religious" texts.
Teejay is right, we are under a new covenant, because of Jesus death on the cross. Our salvation is based on Jesus' payment or the penalty we should have paid. It is important though not to underestimate the value of the old testament. Without it we wouldn't understand our need for salvation, and our inability to get to heaven without Jesus. I think this might have been what you ment though. There are a lot of christians who are reluctant to go into the old testament (or parts of the new testament like Revalation) because they are awkward and unpleasent. The old testament is still scripture. We need both parts.
23rd December 2011, 01:40 PM #100
What do people think of the following quote from Penn Jillette's new book?
There is no god and that's the simple truth. If every trace of any single religion died out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again. (Source
23rd December 2011, 01:54 PM #101
Hard to quantify - it's a quote from a book on atheism - what more can you say?
Let's spin the argument on it's head a bit.
"If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again. (Source)"
Testicles. Who is to say that the science we know/we are told is actually correct?
For instance, we are >< close to disproving half of what Einstein has said, and as a result disproving a large chunk of what modern science is based upon.
23rd December 2011, 02:05 PM #102
Originally Posted by synaesthesia
Edit. Things such as the speed of light, the boiling point of water and the time it takes the Earth to orbit the Sun wouldn't change though, would it?
Last edited by Arthur; 23rd December 2011 at 04:57 PM.
23rd December 2011, 05:16 PM #103
Ah - but that is the point - the speed of light may well be under discussion due to recent experiments! Also, quite a few theories in Physics have changed over the years - if we started again from scratch, we may end up with different explanations for things next time round
Originally Posted by Arthur
23rd December 2011, 10:43 PM #104
The contention is not the speed of light (which changes based on medium), but that the speed of light (in a vacum) is the absolute limit. Besides I imagine the progression would be simmilar, Einstein's model was and is largely correct for all the particles that he knew about. We've gone a level deeper now and so can see different things. Its like newtonian physics, it was a great model that allowed people to get into orbit of the planet, understanding grew and on looking deeper/well smaller it was found that the model did not fully fit for all cases. This is waht science is, the best model at the time that allows for progress.
Originally Posted by witch
Oh and for reference the boiling point of water does change all the time, its based on the atmospheric pressure so water boild at 100 degrees celcius at sea level, on the sumit of Everest its only 79 degrees Boiling point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . this is what I'm talking about, its all about your frame of reference. It is highly likely that with the same frame of reference the same conclusions would be made eventually assuming that those concluding are not epic level smart and are able to jump a few steps.
Last edited by SYNACK; 23rd December 2011 at 10:47 PM.
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