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Jokes/Interweb Things Thread, Banksy's at it again! in Fun Stuff; Originally Posted by JoeBloggs You're saying people lack individuality if they believe in religion? I don't understand how you come ...
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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeBloggs View Post
    You're saying people lack individuality if they believe in religion? I don't understand how you come to that conclusion.
    Religious belief requires faith. Faith is based on a predetermined set of ideas and teachings, in Christianity from the Bible and from religious leaders. So, by following a religion, you're giving up your own individuality to blindly follow what someone else says IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Religious belief requires faith. Faith is based on a predetermined set of ideas and teachings, in Christianity from the Bible and from religious leaders. So, by following a religion, you're giving up your own individuality to blindly follow what someone else says IMO.
    It takes more faith to be an athiest IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Religious belief requires faith. Faith is based on a predetermined set of ideas and teachings, in Christianity from the Bible and from religious leaders. So, by following a religion, you're giving up your own individuality to blindly follow what someone else says IMO.
    I think you have an individual opinion to follow it or not.

    A lot of people have "faith" in different religions and do not "blindly follow". It's been mentioned earlier that a lot of it is down to how the individual perceives the writings and teaching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    It takes more faith to be an athiest IMO
    faith in what?

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    I really hope this thread does not get stopped as I would never go to a God based forum to chat about this.

    To me it is not rational to believe in something I cant see, touch or interact with and to make it even harder for me to understand religion its all based on stories.
    I simply do not get how someone can give over part of their lives to something that might not be.

    I know the difference between right and wrong and have very good moral standards, all without being religious.

    If religion never was created I truly believe there would be less wars and suffering in this world. The evil people in this world would not have a catalist with which to push their evil agends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neg Rep
    Yeah, because Frodo Baggins was the Son of God. What a stupid post
    Why? In theory there is no reason why people would not believe the story it tells. That's what happened with the bible isn't it? A book was written and people decided to believe what it said and to live and shape their lives around it. In my opinion, they are both fictional characters and I can't understand how people can take the stories as fact. There are plenty of more plausible theories that make more sense and some which can be scientifically proven. If I need to put my faith in something, I'll put it in myself, my friends, families, the doctors, scientists, those that really make a difference. They are the ones who make a difference every single day in peoples lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hightower View Post
    It takes more faith to be an athiest IMO
    What a strange thing to say. It takes no faith as such to be an atheist unless you count a 'faith' that rational and logical thought backed by evidence can lead you to useful conclusions about the world. But in my experience, it seems that is a separate matter from any spiritual belief since many religious people that I encounter attempt to rationalise their faith and try to persuade me that their belief *is* rational and logical, it's just 'faith' because they don't have any actual objective evidence. In other words before any belief or otherwise in god, we share the same philosophical axioms of rationale and logic. Since we share that but I'm sans belief in God, I can't possibly have *more* faith?

    So what faith do you think I have as an atheist and how is that more than a believer in (say) the great teapot in the sky goddess?
    Last edited by pcstru; 16th December 2011 at 06:12 PM.

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    Now now, let's not do this, it's not worth it. We're all free to believe in whatever gets us through the day, it makes you no more or less intelligent to believe in a deity or not, it makes no difference to the grand scheme of things if you do not believe, withhold your belief or cannot quantify a belief. I feel proud being agnostic whilst remaining very good friends with atheists, devout Christians and Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Muslims and Cadburyists, and most of them are also very good friends with eachother too. That's the way forward. Not picking holes in what makes us feel better, not picking apart the little parts of eachother's beliefs, not destroying eachothers faith. Let's keep it that way here. The important thing is we're all people on the same planet with the same goals. How we get there is up to us.



    *** Disclaimer. This post is slightly alcohol fuelled, so I may come across as rather more philosophical than usual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawns View Post
    If I need to put my faith in something, I'll put it in myself
    "Don't believe in the you who believes in me. Don't believe in the me who believes in you. Believe in the you who believes in yourself."

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    We're all free to believe in whatever gets us through the day,
    Agreed, with my earlier proviso that someone else's beliefs shouldn't impinge on another's rights.

    it makes you no more or less intelligent to believe in a deity or not,
    Your opinion.

    it makes no difference to the grand scheme of things if you do not believe, withhold your belief or cannot quantify a belief.
    True, unless people with belief use it to try to control those without belief, as happens all around the world.

    I feel proud being agnostic whilst remaining very good friends with atheists, devout Christians and Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Muslims and Cadburyists, and most of them are also very good friends with eachother too.
    It might shock some, but one of the people I respect the most in this world is possibly the most devout Christian I've ever met. He's a truly lovely man, selfless and caring. So, agreed.

    That's the way forward. Not picking holes in what makes us feel better, not picking apart the little parts of eachother's beliefs, not destroying eachothers faith. Let's keep it that way here. The important thing is we're all people on the same planet with the same goals. How we get there is up to us.
    Ah, but there in lies the rub doesn't it? The picking apart each others' beliefs comes about through thousands of years of religion being used as a tool to control and oppress, or in more modern times by some, a tool to abuse. So, how do we end the vicious cycle?

    An example problem - the Middle East. A load of countries where religion has found its place controlling the population, whether you're a believer or not. How do people who want their freedoms tackle that without picking holes?

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    Weren't most religions and deities initially created at a time when people knew very little about the world around them or to explain the unknown? e.g. the Aztec's used to pray to Tlaloc for rain, and the Inca's to Inti -their sun god. Since we need food and water to survive, it stands to reason why people would use fictitious gods and myths to explain why certain things did or didn't happen. They obviously had no knowledge of how rain is created or why plants need sunlight to grow, just that it happens if you pray for long enough.

    If early human civilizations knew what we do now thanks to science and technology, would they still worship gods? Surely there wouldn't be any need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    It might shock some, but one of the people I respect the most in this world is possibly the most devout Christian I've ever met. He's a truly lovely man, selfless and caring. So, agreed.
    But by your own admission, you seem to have a problem with people who have faith and you think they are less intelligent than those who don't, or at the very least deluded.
    So how can someone you know who has a strong faith have your respect? How can you respect someone who does something that you think is peculiar? Smacks a bit of 'ohh, religious people are all idiots except XX of course coz I know him and he's all right' doesn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    But by your own admission, you seem to have a problem with people who have faith and you think they are less intelligent than those who don't, or at the very least deluded.
    So how can someone you know who has a strong faith have your respect? How can you respect someone who does something that you think is peculiar? Smacks a bit of 'ohh, religious people are all idiots except XX of course coz I know him and he's all right' doesn't it?
    You make the assumption that I think people who are less intelligent, are deluded or are peculiar don't deserve respect. I haven't said that. I can respect someone but still find their belief to be odd and counter-intuitive.

    An example, I respect Jeremy Clarkson for his no-nonsense way of saying things. He doesn't beat around the bush, he just says it. However, I don't agree with many of the things he says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    'So, I've got a weak mind?'. In my personal opinion? Yes you do. As I say though, that's my opinion (and some others too, based on the psychological view that religious belief is a mass delusion in order to make people feel happier as they can't bear to think for themselves).

    To me, if you can't go through life without needing to believe that there is a supreme being pulling strings, it shows a lack of ability of critical thinking, and a lack of individuality.
    Semantics. This may not say you think that people are less intelligent but how else would you interpret your belief that people who believe in religion have weak minds? Including your friend who you respect so much?

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    Actually while weak is not how I would go about putting it, people who believe in a faith do actually have a different brain construct. Much research has been done. For example you can trigger belief in anyone by pulses of electricity being aimed at specific regions of the brain. Someone that never believed suddenly has a feeling that there is more to our world. Many crash victims that have damages that part of the brain have become religious but it can go the other way.

    From a scientific standpoint this was crucial when we evolved from apes (although if you do believe in God that never happened) and was needed to create a common together feeling between our ancestors.

    This also shows that it is all in the mind, which explains allot to me, as I cant understand how someone would believe in something just because it is in a book. The feeling that you are being watched over is pre coded into most peoples minds, and the need to explain why they have that feeling is handed to them in the Bible or other texts.

    Don't get me wrong, I would love to believe that when I die I will go on to a higher plane, that must be a fantastic feeling, but I am also happy to be feeding the worms and becoming one with the Earth when I die, even if I don't know it at the time.

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