School Server and infrastructure revamp

[MrWu]

I just noticed you're newish here, welcome You've been here a month and not ran away screaming for the hills, that's a good thing.

I am sure you do & will continue to contribute just fine!

You might be able to run the fileserver off of the QSAN box if it's any good (I've never used them), and back it up across onto whatever new toy comes along to play with.

That said, a DL380 with a bunch of disk will probably work just as well (decent disks!!) as a fileserver and you could start your virtualisation project on top of the QSAN but it depends how resilient it is as a system as it's one of the great unknowns!

Of course, this is even assuming you NEED a SAN at the moment, you might be able to get away with (as many folks do) a few boxes each with some local disks raided up and virtualise on top of that; yes you'll lose the vmotion and ability to shift stuff around as easily but you might not need that if you have a decent raid set up and back up regime.

You've made (and I'm pleased, so many people don't) the right connection that comparing the logon/logoff patterns in commercial to Edu simply isn't close. You need kit that can take almost the full complement of your student PC estate logging in & out every hour in large chunks so a/some capable fileserver and sensible profile management is the biggest win you could possibly get. There's probably some argument here also that whatever you do do in fileserver land if you only deploy one for now it's probably still worth setting it up in DFS style so if you need to bolt on more fileservers later you don't need to worry about updating unc path links and messing about you just throw the box into the mix.

What's your network like at the moment? Do you have a reasonable core switch that the servers are connected close to or is it a bit of a mish mash?

So many things to think about

Thanks again :-) Believe me there were times I would have flung myself down the hill curled up in a ball...it's just this week made me stronger, with all the powercut issues, still during school time the head master managed to host his assembly, no one lost data, and all classes managed to log on ok without even knowing the night before they had no fileserver ! That made me keep going.

It's a huge Mish Mash at the moment, I'm hoping it's untidy more then anything else (it's all CAT5e / a bit of CAT 6 horizontal) with fibre between cabinets. The server room has a Dlink 24port gigabit switch and a mixture of fibre converters (dangling down like Xmas decorations !) some are even 100mbps only I think. We spent 3 days tidying up the ICT office, storeroom and the front of the server room, so will need to visit all the comms cabinets next term break if not earlier ! I'm hoping 15k is more than generous to sort that lot out and mostly be elbow grease..

[MrWu]

This Could be quite long! As other have mentioned server wise everything is HP (apart from my custom built backup server) Our Lan Infrastructure is all HP Procurve (2610's as edge switches with a 5406Zl core switch providing the routing)

I was in a similar position to you about 2 1/2 years ago with what you have now. This is what I would do (and in most cases have just with older kit DL380 G5's)

Virtual hosts - x 3/4
HP DL360 G7's Dual 6 core Xeon with 48GB ram in each (that model comes with 12Gb but easily upgraded - supports 384Gb) this machine has 4 Nics so additional cards would be needed if you get a new ISCSI SAN. If running windows for Hyper-V 2x72GB drives for OS. If ESXI an SD card (server has slot directly on motherboard).
To Host:

• File Servers (however many you like 4/6Gb ram each)
• Exchange Server x 1 (Server 2008 R2 16GB ram)
• RDP Server x 1 (Server 2k8 R2 10Gb Ram
• Sims Server x 1 (Server 2008 R2 Full Sql 8Gb ram - if not more)
• Intranet Webserver x 1 (I would say apache on linux)
• Impero Server x 1 (not sure hardware requirements)
• 1 X Frog Server (not sure hardware requirements)
• Dedicated Print Server (Server 2003/8 R2 depending on clients - 4/6GB Ram should do)

SAN
This is where I am not sure and possibly others can comment better. I use a Fiber Channel San but can be expensive. Although I can get 8GB per channel to the device. I use an HP MSA2012FC with additional enclosure (about 8TB raided). HP currently have an Offer on the HP P2000 G3 array with up to 50% cashback.

Physical DC x 1
HP Dl360 G7 Quad Core Xeon with 6GB ram. Should be plenty 2 x 250Gb SAS Raid 1 - This can host DNS, DHCP, WSUS (Server 2008 R2)

As for backups I would go with a fairly decent machine connected to your existing ISCSI San (preferable in a separate location is possible) I can keep 7 weeks of backups on 16TB so should be fairly good. Can also use Nas device aswell (if it supports ISCSI good - if not USB/Firewire?) I've never used DPM so not sure what it's like hardware wise but the specs are here.

For each Virtual host Look to be paying around 4k (from what i ordered and got this should be doable. I got mine from BT Business Direct with 24Gb ram in each and extra 4port nic card for 3k ish (then money was claimed back from HP for Ram upgrade). Then the Physical DC and backup Server about £1500-£2000. In total 16-20k for servers and the rest on a San.

Cheers for the fantastic info, have printed this out and go through with a fine toothcomb ! :-)

[glennda]

Cheers for the fantastic info, have printed this out and go through with a fine toothcomb ! :-)

Not a Problem - and Questions either post them up here or PM me. As I say I have done most of the above anyway although I don't use either Hyper-V or ESXI as i host on Linux KVM.

For Backups if you don't want to use your ISCSI San or want to use it for the VM's (although not sure of its spec/up to the job) take a look at this thread Thats what I made in the end - 32Tb backup server!

[glennda]

If you go ISCSI make sure you have a backbone switch that can cope. For the Fiber Channel stuff we use an HP 20/8Q to distribute between the multiple hosts.

[kmount]

If you go iSCSI shove it on a separate switch, no need to make your core cry unnecessarily unless you need to get at it from elsewhere in the building (but even then you could cheat this).

Excellent post from glennda, rep+

[glennda]

Also with regards to UPS's - a quick flick through the APC site and loading the above in (with an MSA P2000 San as the example) and a core switch (so the UPS can communicate with servers when power goes - spend ages working out once why my servers didn't shut down - core wasn't on ups! ) It reckons something with about 6KVA with an additional battery pack should give you 45 mins power (which is pretty good!) The APC one is SURT6000XLI + SURT192XLBP which comes to about 3k. I Personally have the 10KVA one which runs my entire server rack from a 32A Three phase connector - I will be buying an additional one next year to load balance. You will probably need a PDU as well. Something like this APC one

[MrWu]

Thanks guys;

I have also had a brainwave..

A HP DL380 G7 was ordered for the new finance software (We are going into Academy status - I didnt include it in my plan because it was already ordered..but solution was staring at my face lol) the spec is:

HP ProLiant DL380 G7 - Intel Xeon E5620 / 2.4 GHz ( Quad-Core ) 2U Server / 6Gb Installed / DVD R/W Optical Drive / 3 Years - On-Site NBD / (Part Number - 470065-479)
2 GB RAM upgrade
8 x507127-B21 (300GB 10k Drives)
Redundant PSU

The Bursa wants it as a finance server only but I think I can convince him I can virtualise this, I could possibly get another CPU and some more RAM and and virtualise the Finace software (it will run on SQL 2008, requirements not that heavy:

Data Server

Software
Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Standard or above
Processor: Dual 1.5 GHz or better
Operating System:Microsoft Windows 2003 Server or above
Memory: 2 GB
Disk : 10GB

 Clients running Novel 4 or above can use Sybase SQL Anywhere V7 or V8
 Clients running UNIX can operate with Oracle 8i or above
 If running Windows 2003 or 2008 and SQL 2005 or 2008 please increase memory by a minimum of 2Gb
 It is the client’s responsibility to ensure the hardware is capable of running these database platforms

Web Server
Software
All supplied by Company(i.e. IIS is not required)
Processor : Intel Pentium Processor, 1.5GHz or better
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 2003 Server or above
Memory:2 GB
Disk : 10GB

 Clients who wish to may operate the data server and web server from the same physical machine. In this case we would recommend increasing the memory and a better processor

So I could put the 8 x 300GB Disk on RAID 10 on this new G7, add more RAM and hopefully and 2nd Xeon, would this be good to go for as a Hyper V and maybe another 2 virtual machines (Impero, Intranet Servers)? For guys who have ran SQL on Hyper-V, does it really need passthrough disk/ Spindle as Microsft recommends?

[glennda]

For anything that runs using sql the more ram it can have the better. I run Sims with 16gb ram so that the sql process can store as much data in the ram as possible therefore lowering the load on the disks (our sims+fms db is aroun 9gb combined)

[MrWu]

For anything that runs using sql the more ram it can have the better. I run Sims with 16gb ram so that the sql process can store as much data in the ram as possible therefore lowering the load on the disks (our sims+fms db is aroun 9gb combined)

Thanks glennda;

I think if the new finance software is succesfully virtualised, then SIMS will go along this route as well.
So I'm thinking of just running the Hyper-V Visor on the Host machine. RAID 10 for the 8 x 300GB Disk (should give 1.2 TB of space)
Do you use passthrough disks or a fixed VHD for your sims + fms?

My only concern is even with 1.2TB it might not be futureproof enough to host say 3-4 machines.

Depending on how critical uptime is (and costs) I could use a fast SAN as suggested and have Fallover protection with another DL380 G7.

We are going to implement MDT/DPM 2007/2012 as well so server rebuilds should be quite quick and straightforward, so medium term that might be the option.

[glennda]

I use the equivalent of VHD's for my all my servers but as I don't use/have never used Hyper-V you may need to ask others.

[mrbios]

Hi all;

I have been given the chance to give our secondary school a revamp and to replace the server room with something more robust. I have been suggested to set aside 30k to replace or add the following:

2 x Windows 2008 DCs
1 x Fileserver / Printserver (current storage for teachers and students 1TB)
1 x SIMS Server
1 x DPM 2007/2012 Server
1 x SCCM 2007 / SCCM 2012 Server
1 x Hyper-V (to virtualise old Intranet Server,Impero Server and maybe a Virtual DC

We will carry on using our Exchange 2010 (on new hardware) keep the QSAN P300Q iSCSI 12 TB SAN (most likely to the DPM 2007/2012 for backup storage), I have a Tanberg LTO5 library Drive that I'm thinking whether to sell on or keep in the network for archival, rest of old servers are Q6600 with Consumer SATA 7200rpm Drives thats been running the network of 1100 students and 150 staff, have been told by a few suppliers that I need to spend super duper money to handle a potential increase to an extra 150 sixth form students on top of the next term...

What do you guys think?

You only need 3 servers to run that lot, easily.

3 x Dual CPU / 24-36GB ram servers - DISKLESS!
2 x iSCSI SANS (two not a requirement but handy for redundancy if they were replicated storage)

Install vmware ESXi on to internal pen drives for the servers, allocate iscsi storage from one of the SANs to the virtual hosts, have the other SAN in another locaion (ideally another server room in a different building if this is possible) replicate the storage and run backups to tape from that location.

What was your reasoning behind allocating £7k for a file and print server? 4GB-6GB ram and 1 cpu allocated via virtualisation would cope with that job fine. Also DCs, even on 2008R2 need only 1GB ram and 1 cpu, wouldn't be worth chucking £5k at two DCs. Finally people will recommend you making one DC it's own physical host but you really don't need to, literally everything you've listed can sit on 3 virtual hosts quite happily.

I could make a post 3 pages long to explain my suggestions behind all this if i had the time, just please consider everything very carefully before you purchase becuase the figures you posted in your 2nd post in this thread would be completely piddling money up the wall.

EDIT: just went back and read some other bits, this really needs to be a very phased upgrade over the course or 1-2 years, you mention wireless solutions etc but that should be a final thought. Get the switching upgrades done and get the network traffic managed efficiently first.

EDIT2: That DL380....rip the 8 x SAS drives out and use them for the SAN, completely wasted in a single server.

[steve]

We run SIMS with hyper-v using vhds with no issues. One for the OS, one for the sims data.

If going down the local storage for vhds, I'd see if you could split the 8 into a single raid 1 mirror for the OS and a raid 10 for the vhds. Check if you could move the 6x raid 10 drives on mass to another G7 in the event of server failure.

[MrWu]

We run SIMS with hyper-v using vhds with no issues. One for the OS, one for the sims data.

If going down the local storage for vhds, I'd see if you could split the 8 into a single raid 1 mirror for the OS and a raid 10 for the vhds. Check if you could move the 6x raid 10 drives on mass to another G7 in the event of server failure.

Thanks Steve;

Do you use a fixed size for your OS and SIMS VHD? ...If I mirror the OS and RAID 10 the rest I will have about 900GB of storage left (I'm hoping to add at least 2 more VMs locally) However, my SIMS database is less than 4GB at the moment.

[steve]

We set drives to be dynamic with a limit of 127GB.

Most stuff doesn't get beyond 20GB. SIMS has grown with docstorage, FMS, SIMS, local backups, etc to about a 100GB vhd but now has plenty of free space after a good tidy up.

All 20+ servers we have (excluding file storage but including exchange) don't take up more that 800GB.

[gshaw]

Proliant DL380 all the way

We've got 3 of them, 36GB RAM each running VMWare and they're lovely bits of kit. If you can find the extra £££ to get the 380s over the 360s you've got a bit more expansion potential if you need to add more NICs etc later on. Also seem to run a bit quieter but don't quote me on that!

Again if you have space \ budget replicated SANs would be ideal for DR, if you go with Veeam as your backup solution you could add a 4th VMWare host alongside the 2nd SAN for full DR but depends on how much £££ you have to play with.

For starters get some sort of capacity planner on your existing network to see where the IOPs are going, which will help to plan your disk requirements for any new kit... servers are the easy part, the most vital area is the storage and will cause you a world of pain if you get it wrong