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How do you do....it? Thread, How do you.....explain to a teacher what is legal and illegal..... in Technical; Originally Posted by GREED Then user awareness gets added into the mix. We had a policy to delete (with roll ...
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    soveryapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Then user awareness gets added into the mix. We had a policy to delete (with roll back available, obviously) suspect files without notice. Staff have to realise in particular that this should not be a constant running battle, thems the rules!

    I think at the end of the day, the bottom line is that like it or not is illegal and needs to be stopped, excuses will not save the individual or school from prosecution should it come to that.
    One way around all of this would be for the staff to submit, either on paper / e-mail / helpdesk, whichever is easiest, with a list of tracks they have put into the area and a reason as to why they are in there. That way, you do the delete, with rollback like you say, and basically, if the file isn't on the list that you have, then the file gets deleted. If their information includes "Take That - The Flood" then they have to all the relevant information in place as to why it's in there, permissions, etc. Ok, it means you have to check a list / put exceptions into your script etc, but the pain in the arse of paperwork it will make for staff should hopefully mean that you only have tracks in there that really are that important!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    We have plenty of those file types used quite legally including lesson resources, students work etc - how do you deal with that?
    We don't use any of those file types for lessons. Movie files are not permitted on the servers as playing movies without having a streaming media server just brings the servers to a crawl. If anyone wants to play music they do so from thier USB sticks or external drives.
    Last edited by kili; 25th November 2010 at 03:35 PM.

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    GREED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aptproductions View Post
    One way around all of this would be for the staff to submit, either on paper / e-mail / helpdesk, whichever is easiest, with a list of tracks they have put into the area and a reason as to why they are in there. That way, you do the delete, with rollback like you say, and basically, if the file isn't on the list that you have, then the file gets deleted. If their information includes "Take That - The Flood" then they have to all the relevant information in place as to why it's in there, permissions, etc. Ok, it means you have to check a list / put exceptions into your script etc, but the pain in the arse of paperwork it will make for staff should hopefully mean that you only have tracks in there that really are that important!
    Sounds good. Without strong messages from IT management, staff are not going to 'want' to follow these rules, so consequences have be strong. Often in the early stages this means some additional work, but in time once a system is place and staff learn, it becomes second nature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    I think we should follow Russia's lead on this. Downloading music and films for home use is legal due to exception provided by section 1273 of Russian Federation Civil Code. A special 1% compensatory levy intended for copyright owners is collected from the price of certain goods (like computers or clean CD-RW disks).
    I wouldn't mind the UK trying that, but in the meantime, in our professional capacity at least, we should certainly be sticking with the rules and laws we have, not the ones we wish we had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenewman View Post
    Still amounts to the same thing.
    Lets call it murder then instead shall we.

    "A man was found to have committed murder 11 times yesterday when he copied his CD onto his ipod"

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    Lets call it murder then instead shall we.

    "A man was found to have committed murder 11 times yesterday when he copied his CD onto his ipod"
    Not even close to being a suitable comparison. Copyright infringement is closer to being theft than it is murder... ie. the original artist is having their work taken and used without their permission. Sure, you're not taking a physical item, but why must theft be a physical item? What if I were to steal an idea that you had? Would that be theft? If someone had gone to the guy who created Facebook, heard about his idea, then rushed to market and created his own identical service? I'd say that was theft, yet nothing physical has been taken...

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    GREED's Avatar
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    Well...

    Firstly lets not call it murder, thats only a little bit distasteful to compare the two.

    Secondly, copying to a personal device for personal use... is that illegal?

    Either way we are talking about this being used publically, where there are strict rules on.

    Edit: Fully agree Localz
    Last edited by GREED; 25th November 2010 at 04:29 PM.

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    My experience with this is, it's a losing battle.
    Refuse to copy the CD for them, they'll find someone else to do it (either in school or at home).
    Tell them they can't play DVDs at the end of term and you're likely to get you head bitten off.

    If they ask you to do something that you know it illegal, you should refuse.
    If they get uppity about it, go to your line manager and tell them you are being asked, or even pressured, into committing an illegal act that not only could land the school in trouble but also personally affects you, and that is why you refuse to do it.

    If the Head of the school orders you to do it, well, I'd go over their head to the Governors and tell them what was happening; any person who is directing you to perform illegal acts should not be running a school!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete10141748 View Post
    If they ask you to do something that you know it illegal, you should refuse.
    If they get uppity about it, go to your line manager and tell them you are being asked, or even pressured, into committing an illegal act that not only could land the school in trouble but also personally affects you, and that is why you refuse to do it.
    Have to agree with this. It's wholly inappropriate to be 'forced' into breaking the law at work and I'd always refuse. (I should say now that my employer has always supported the 'refuse' point of view themselves...)

    What are they going to do? Sack us The industrial tribunal and local press coverage for that would be a bloodbath...

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Not even close to being a suitable comparison. Copyright infringement is closer to being theft than it is murder... ie. the original artist is having their work taken and used without their permission. Sure, you're not taking a physical item, but why must theft be a physical item? What if I were to steal an idea that you had? Would that be theft? If someone had gone to the guy who created Facebook, heard about his idea, then rushed to market and created his own identical service? I'd say that was theft, yet nothing physical has been taken...
    Yes but there is more to this than just semantics. If you have a car and I steal it then you don't have a car (theft). If you have an idea and I use your idea then we both have the idea (infringement). I don't think we should conflate the two concepts. Language is being abused here for political purposes.

    I was obviously using murder as an extreme example, however courts often give out sentences for theft that are equivalent to the sentence given out for murder. Eg. Armed Robbery, 20 years to life.

    And of course real life pirates do murder people.

    People who like to call infringement theft have this broad view that using something without permission of an authority figure equals theft. They've stretched the term from simply "stealing someone else's property" to include "stealing someone else's choice in letting you copy 'their content'" and "stealing someone else's ability to make money off of the 'content' you're using."
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 31st March 2011 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Then user awareness gets added into the mix. We had a policy to delete (with roll back available, obviously) suspect files without notice. Staff have to realise in particular that this should not be a constant running battle, thems the rules!

    I think at the end of the day, the bottom line is that like it or not is illegal and needs to be stopped, excuses will not save the individual or school from prosecution should it come to that.
    So a student's music/media/languages/technology coursework or teaching resources that are legit are deleted as a matter of routine (how you determine suspect is another issue) and to continue working on it or when they need it for a lesson they have to get it restored. I've got to say that doesn't feel over customer friendly to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kili View Post
    We don't use any of those file types for lessons. Movie files are not permitted on the servers as playing movies without having a streaming media server just brings the servers to a crawl. If anyone wants to play music they do so from thier USB sticks or external drives.
    You're very lucky then because we use audio & video files in many subjects created by both staff and students. Media studies have to produce video files, MFL use mp3 recorders, music make mp3 files etc etc. Surely your staff and students must do the same?

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    Yes but there is more to this than just semantics. If you have a car and I steal it then you don't have a car (theft). If you have an idea and I use your idea then we both have the idea (infringement). I don't think we should conflate the two concepts. Language is being abused here for political purposes.
    It is still stealing something though - just not a physical thing. You are instead stealing someone's time, effort, investment and creativity. If you have a builder in to do some work, provide them with all the materials and then don't pay them, you'd be prosecuted for theft of services. If you connect to someone else's power line and use their power, you aren't taking a physical thing from them, but you are still stealing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    So a student's music/media/languages/technology coursework or teaching resources that are legit are deleted as a matter of routine (how you determine suspect is another issue) and to continue working on it or when they need it for a lesson they have to get it restored. I've got to say that doesn't feel over customer friendly to me.
    Not at all, we had a very good happy customer base whereby they know the rules. We had directories set up for such work that were tailored to allow specific types of files, solely for use by the course-work and solely for the individual for that lesson, and because of this we were on top of any misuse.

    I still come back to the original point, excuses are not getting around the rules, and so 'well we couldn't keep on top of it because they had coursework' will not hold up in court. Importantly we worked with the staff and students to arrange suitable solutions, the above is an example on one such.

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    Whether it's infringement, theft, murder or whatever, the fact still remains that whether you agreee with it or not, it's illegal and we should not be doing it or condoning anyone that does. Any requests, instructions, or pressure from staff to do so should be directed to a higher authority or simply met with a flat refusal to do it.

    Incidentally, if you were unable to download the music track etc. Would they expect you to go into HMV and steal the CD for them?

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