+ Post New Thread
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 80
Hardware Thread, i-Pad vs Laptop in Technical; Originally Posted by Roberto That's a decision for the business to take, not the individual (regardless of whether its the ...
  1. #61

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    170
    Thank Post
    8
    Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
    Rep Power
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    That's a decision for the business to take, not the individual (regardless of whether its the individual in IT support saying "Computer Sez No" because they don't fancy the extra work or the user saying "but I want it *pout*") because having to wait for IT chafes on them. The organisation has to balance risks and requirements to reach a solution it is comfortable with.

    You seem to have a very jaded view of business IT by the way (which is fair enough), and seem quite happy to compare the worst of business IT to the best of "supporting creative users" as if there's no place on the dial between those two extremes, which seems a little unfair.
    There can't be many schools where you can implement something in-between, but where those schools do exist the IT support department could just as easily be the hindrance if they don't understand the maturity of the user base and staff, and tailor the solutions accordingly. Here, it helps to understand what belt and braces security measures are and aren't.

  2. #62

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,024
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 193 Times in 149 Posts
    Rep Power
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by alttab View Post
    There can't be many schools where you can implement something in-between, but where those schools do exist the IT support department could just as easily be the hindrance if they don't understand the maturity of the user base and staff, and tailor the solutions accordingly. Here, it helps to understand what belt and braces security measures are and aren't.
    But my point is that it's not up to the IT department to lock things down past the point that people can't do any work, just as its not up to individual staff in other departments to behave irresponsibly with for example, personal information about students, in the interests of expediency. It's up to the organisation as a whole to decide what its requirements are, to react to the world changing around them so those requirements don't end up causing them to fall behind, and to demand that all staff take these requirements seriously.

  3. #63

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    17,684
    Thank Post
    516
    Thanked 2,452 Times in 1,898 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    832
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    But my point is that it's not up to the IT department to lock things down past the point that people can't do any work, just as its not up to individual staff in other departments to behave irresponsibly with for example, personal information about students, in the interests of expediency. It's up to the organisation as a whole to decide what its requirements are, to react to the world changing around them so those requirements don't end up causing them to fall behind, and to demand that all staff take these requirements seriously.
    Alight flaw in that thinking - you keep referring to the organisation. Who makes the decisions? In most organisations, those decisions are made by, you guessed it, the network manager! That's what he's employed for...

    Otherwise, it means having more meetings and a lot of staff are loathed to sign themselves up to more of them. The head certainly wouldn't be interested in such a discussion, that's why he hires IT professionals to do the job.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,024
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 193 Times in 149 Posts
    Rep Power
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Alight flaw in that thinking - you keep referring to the organisation. Who makes the decisions? In most organisations, those decisions are made by, you guessed it, the network manager! That's what he's employed for...

    Otherwise, it means having more meetings and a lot of staff are loathed to sign themselves up to more of them. The head certainly wouldn't be interested in such a discussion, that's why he hires IT professionals to do the job.
    And the network manager is answerable to other people, our decisions are made in response to business requirements - IT departments and their managers are not an island unto themselves. At least not in a functional establishment that's being run to a reasonable standard...

  5. #65

    Steve21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Swindon
    Posts
    2,695
    Thank Post
    335
    Thanked 515 Times in 483 Posts
    Rep Power
    179
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    And the network manager is answerable to other people, our decisions are made in response to business requirements
    But isn't that the exact point, At the end of the line it is the IT team who need to decide if software/etc is secure, workable and usable within the environment? That's the job afterall There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

    Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.

    It's the fine balance of protecting everyone (including students, parents, teachers, data etc etc), and ensuring everyone has access to the software they want. There are always things that either "upset" someone, or break policies etc.

    (And to me at least, this "functional" arguement seems to base around what happens when that occurs, Does the NM just go ok go ahead to keep teachers happy, or do they protect everyone and upset that teacher? Not saying one way is right, one is wrong, but to me the needs of many go over the needs of one.)

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve21; 12th August 2012 at 11:21 AM.

  6. #66

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,024
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 193 Times in 149 Posts
    Rep Power
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    But isn't that the exact point, At the end of the line it is the IT team who need to decide if software/etc is secure, workable and usable within the environment? That's the job afterall There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

    Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.

    It's the fine balance of protecting everyone (including students, parents, teachers, data etc etc), and ensuring everyone has access to the software they want. There are always things that either "upset" someone, or break policies etc.

    (And to me at least, this "functional" arguement seems to base around what happens when that occurs, Does the NM just go ok go ahead to keep teachers happy, or do they protect everyone and upset that teacher? Not saying one way is right, one is wrong, but to me the needs of many go over the needs of one.)

    Steve
    Well this is pretty much what I'm saying. It's up to the people running the organisation whether or not you need wireless (or at a higher level, they might simply say they wish to use 'portable device x') in each classroom, say, if teachers can show a requirement.

    Even in places where this decision is left to the NM, someone higher up has made the choice to allow them that latitude and give them the funding to support it. It's then up to the IT managers how to achieve that objective.
    Last edited by Roberto; 12th August 2012 at 05:22 PM.

  7. #67

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    170
    Thank Post
    8
    Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
    Rep Power
    37
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    There has to be a line where something is too insecure/old/unworkable that a firm no is given, it's not being installed sitewide.

    Alternatives can be researched, and discussed obviously, but I don't agree there is ever this "perfect" harmony when every item requested can be given, and still kept to all the laws/security policies etc to ensure safe day to day running for students.
    Most of the time it's a case of teacher A wants to use this, if that is agreeable to the NM from a deployment, compatibility PoV then fine, or if the NM isn't fussed then again that's fine. But it doesn't seem to start from the point of view of 'what problem are we trying to solve' from both sides of the fence it comes down to personal preference over what bit of hardware and software is to be used, and what people are in their comfort zone with rather than identifying the need and then sourcing the solution.

    It's so frustrating to get people who've worked a certain way and are determined to lift and shift that approach to their new place of work where they're given the autonomy to make those decisions. Harmony to me is achievable if folk are open to opening their ears and open to new ideas from others. I guess there is often a determination to do things in a certain way, where sometimes that determination isn't necessary or suitable given the environment. I've worked in environments where the majority of students immediate impulse isn't to download multi-GB unsuitable files to their home area, so in those environments why have hard quotas of piddly amounts of user storage ? There are countless other examples of square holes and round pegs that end up frustrating the user base, and have got very little to do with overall whole-organisation policy. Unless it is an organisation wide policy to make users less productive, which would be a first to be fair. And is totally unnecessary in a medium sized school.

  8. #68

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,024
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 193 Times in 149 Posts
    Rep Power
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by alttab View Post
    I guess there is often a determination to do things in a certain way, where sometimes that determination isn't necessary or suitable given the environment. I've worked in environments where the majority of students immediate impulse isn't to download multi-GB unsuitable files to their home area, so in those environments why have hard quotas of piddly amounts of user storage ?
    Funding usually. We allocate far less storage to both students and staff than I would ideally like, but we allocate all that we reasonably can, rather than keeping gobs of unused disk space spare, as it were.
    Last edited by Roberto; 12th August 2012 at 09:12 PM.

  9. #69

    SYNACK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    11,170
    Thank Post
    868
    Thanked 2,697 Times in 2,287 Posts
    Blog Entries
    11
    Rep Power
    772
    @rdk - Oh, good, I was being used as the example of the evil lockdown wizard. I do find that funny as I generally run some of the least locked down school networks - that still work reliably - that I know of. My view point is heavily jaded by the few, generally most vocal and most self proclaimed 'technically skilled' users that break stuff so badly and with so little respect.

    Here's the thing, teachers are not gods, they aren't! Now with that in mind lets put foward that the same loarding over, can't possibly understand mindset is exactly what you are wineing about and exactly what you are displaying. The end best end result is the best education for the students, this is not always helped by every teacher wandering off in their own direction doing their own thing as there are different qualities of teacher as in any job. Some of the are bad, don't deny it, they are. These are helpfully kept in their jobs by their unions preventing decent assessment of them. These are usually the ones claiming their superiority to everyone including any lowly pond scum that dares to inhabit a school without being a teacher and by extention load of the universe along with infallable. Guess what, everyone has jobs to do and some people are better at certain things hence why they get jobs in those areas. As a teacher you are generally presentation rather than implementation and may not take into account considerations that others might, such as your standard cavilere disregard for copywrite - another trait seemingly common with teachers. Your 'Apple is the answer' to every question viewpoint also probably ruffles a few feathers - mine included as many of the 'features' could also be seen as excuses for not having better solutions to start with.

  10. Thanks to SYNACK from:

    SimpleSi (13th August 2012)

  11. #70


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,202
    Thank Post
    442
    Thanked 1,032 Times in 812 Posts
    Rep Power
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    @rdk - Oh, good, I was being used as the example of the evil lockdown wizard. I do find that funny as I generally run some of the least locked down school networks - that still work reliably - that I know of.
    I'd be really grateful if you you document this to the forum.
    My strategy has always been to 'lock down' the network and the servers, rather than the clients.
    could you provide an html output of your windows client lockdowns? it would help others in this situation enormously.

  12. #71

    SimpleSi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Lancashire
    Posts
    5,812
    Thank Post
    1,476
    Thanked 592 Times in 444 Posts
    Rep Power
    168
    How did I miss this fight
    Do you report them for copyright infringement? No? In which case, your policy doesn't comply with the law in my view... It means that you aren't preventing your staff from breaking copyright on your school systems, which is as bad as facilitating it really.

    Its basically a cop-out answer - 'we tell them off if they do bad things', but are you looking for them doing bad things? Trying to prevent them from doing them?
    ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

    The cook doesn't monitor knife usage - she(sorry to be sexist) doesnt make sure they are not sharp - she hands them out for eating - we tell the pupils(and the teachers) not to stab each other with them and most days things go OK

    When someone does stab with them - the wrath of god comes down upon them - this acts as a good example to the other pupils (and teachers) and a long gap occurs before it happens again.

    Everyone knows not to mis-use the tools that they have been given

    Maybe one day, somewhere, in some school, they might need knife monitors but in lots of schools in lots of places - the cook can get on with cooking and not worry about knive misuse

    Attack ALWAYS Wins and spending tremedous time/effort on defence is normally only a reasonable value for money idea in a prison establishment

    But hey - these discusssions always become religious and we should all live and let live - even if some of us are plonkers and are first in line come the revolution
    Simon

    PS For those new to Edugeek - I am a Dark Lord on the security front - I'm not on that team
    Last edited by SimpleSi; 13th August 2012 at 02:23 AM.

  13. Thanks to SimpleSi from:

    CyberNerd (13th August 2012)

  14. #72

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    17,684
    Thank Post
    516
    Thanked 2,452 Times in 1,898 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    832
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSi View Post
    How did I miss this fight

    ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD
    I don't think I've seen a post that I disagree with more than this one. Last time I checked, my job description said that it was my job to ensure the integrity and security of my network, including ensuring software is licensed and legal. So, that task has been delegated to me to be 'Judge Dredd' as you put it. This isn't about home PCs where its up to the home user to do what they want and the consequences are their's and their's alone. It is about institutions with responsibilities to comply with the law, and that means delegation to people to do so - in this case to the network manager. So, even if you don't end up prosecuted for your staff member's behaviour and your lack of oversight of the network, you'd end up sacked instead while the head gets prosecuted. Me? I don't think that's a good way to behave. So, I try to prevent staff from breaking the law and therefore preventing them from damaging the security, integrity and legality of my school's systems.

    How many people here have such a line as the one I mention above in their job description?

  15. Thanks to localzuk from:

    SimpleSi (13th August 2012)

  16. #73

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    hey hey hey, stay outta my shed. STAY OUT OF MY SHED.
    Posts
    1,024
    Thank Post
    238
    Thanked 193 Times in 149 Posts
    Rep Power
    107
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSi View Post
    How did I miss this fight

    ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD
    I've checked my job description and it turns out that you're wrong about the "your" part of the statement.

  17. Thanks to Roberto from:

    SimpleSi (13th August 2012)

  18. #74

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    9,935
    Thank Post
    1,341
    Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,106 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    594
    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSi View Post
    How did I miss this fight

    ITS NOT OUR/YOUR FFN JOB TO ACT AS JUDGE DREDD

    The cook doesn't monitor knife usage - she(sorry to be sexist) doesnt make sure they are not sharp - she hands them out for eating - we tell the pupils(and the teachers) not to stab each other with them and most days things go OK

    When someone does stab with them - the wrath of god comes down upon them - this acts as a good example to the other pupils (and teachers) and a long gap occurs before it happens again.

    Everyone knows not to mis-use the tools that they have been given

    Maybe one day, somewhere, in some school, they might need knife monitors but in lots of schools in lots of places - the cook can get on with cooking and not worry about knive misuse

    Attack ALWAYS Wins and spending tremedous time/effort on defence is normally only a reasonable value for money idea in a prison establishment

    But hey - these discusssions always become religious and we should all live and let live - even if some of us are plonkers and are first in line come the revolution
    Simon

    PS For those new to Edugeek - I am a Dark Lord on the security front - I'm not on that team
    Sort of yes and no ... there will be a number of people on EG who *do* have it in their job description to be the people who make decisions about copyright, security, compliance, etc and others who don't. It is also hard to try to use analogies equating different laws and how they are applied in schools.

    (general response to the thread now) Forgetting the knives for the minute ... if we just take assault as a criminal offence. A fight breaks out and black eyes are exchanged, skins is broken, bleeding occurs ... even if it is just grazed knees, elbows and face as they roll round on the floor. This is now ABH. The children (depending on age) can be arrested and dealt with under the law. However, most schools and parents involved will happily deal with it within the school rules and not involve the police. The same goes for vandalism (criminal damage) and theft.

    So it is hard to turn round and for any of us to say the the law has to be consistently applied when we routinely ignore it for the convenience and benefit of the school, the parents and the children.

    When it comes to knives then yes, we do have to assess the risk of certain children having knives ... that could be the job of the class teacher, a member of SLT or the DT Tech / HLTA / LSA involved ... but based on an agreed process of assessment ... like any other form of risk assessment you see in schools (school trips, PE, etc).

    It is rare that it is solely a technical responsibility to comply with the law ... if you take the DPA it talks about
    Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.
    ... so while we deal with the techie side there is another portion to be dealt with which can allow for compromise ... you relax the security, improve audit, improve training and set out clear boundaries. If the trust is abused then you come down hard on the individual and adapt what you do to deal with it.

    There is no black and white here ... risk assessment is grey ... and far more than 50 shades at that!

    The fact that someone here has talked about a system that they have which works well, that isolates section of their network and controls who access what and where from, that fits into their school situation ... that doesn't make it perfect for everyone, but is still worth looking at. I've seen similar before with 1:1 schemes and even talked about similar possibilities in the days of the Data Protection work with Becta. A number of WiFi vendors who talk about segregation of networks to allow BYOD talk about it too ...

  19. Thanks to GrumbleDook from:

    tmcd35 (13th August 2012)

  20. #75

    SimpleSi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Lancashire
    Posts
    5,812
    Thank Post
    1,476
    Thanked 592 Times in 444 Posts
    Rep Power
    168
    it turns out that you're wrong about the "your" part of the statement.
    Apologies
    Can you provide a copy of the Judge Dredd section

    Simon

SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Netbooks vs Laptops for class suite
    By Jollity in forum Hardware
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 29th June 2012, 09:00 AM
  2. New Laptop - Sticky Pad
    By Simcfc73 in forum Hardware
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 4th September 2011, 11:50 PM
  3. Laptop screen vs projector resolutions
    By maniac in forum Hardware
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 20th May 2009, 02:51 PM
  4. Chargeline vs. Smartline Laptop Trolley
    By eean in forum Hardware
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12th December 2007, 10:36 AM
  5. Recommend a Laptop.
    By Geoff in forum Hardware
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 26th August 2005, 06:50 AM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •