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Hardware Thread, i-Pad vs Laptop in Technical; Originally Posted by localzuk I couldn't care less if a member of staff wants to use one program or another. ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I couldn't care less if a member of staff wants to use one program or another.
    Don't work in a school then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    Don't work in a school then.
    Huh? It doesn't affect me if they want to use Focus Woodjoints or want to use Yenka technology. My job isn't to make that determination, it is to point out that one is 10+ years old, and will have issues on modern computers so relying upon it would be a bad idea as it could crash during a lesson...

    Your answer seems to have missed the point.

    You as a teaching professional should have input on the T&L side of things, but you should not have control over the technical.

    However, with that abruptly rude response, I'm out.
    Last edited by localzuk; 11th August 2012 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Huh? It doesn't affect me .......
    You actually said "couldn't care less" - quite a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You as a teaching professional should have input on the T&L side of things, but you should not have control over the technical.
    And how exactly can T&L with technology be divorced from the software tools used? Plus if you read carefully you'll see I've mentioned how the T&L side and technical side talk to each other and make compromises.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    However, with that abruptly rude response, I'm out.
    Well, I'm sorry I was rude.

    However, one overwhelming theme on the forums is that "teachers are morons" including a poster earlier who said (bold mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    They (teachers) are generally worse (than other white collar employees), with unions so powerful they would have to murder someone on CCTV to be fired they know they can get away with almost everything and they attempt to.
    so don't get offended too easily.

    And yes, I expect someone to respond to the "morons" section with "you've proved it with what you've written today" so you needn't bother.

    I do accept that legal differences between Australia and the UK make some data issues more complicated, but I've described a situation in a school with lots of computers, and with the IT department. teachers, students and admin all happy with one another that things are going so smoothly. In reading the forums here for a number of years there seem to be quite a lot of schools in the UK that are not in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    but I've described a situation in a school with lots of computers, and with the IT department. teachers, students and admin all happy with one another that things are going so smoothly. In reading the forums here for a number of years there seem to be quite a lot of schools in the UK that are not in that situation.
    A lot of the "not happy" part is due to not getting what they want though. It's no different to if a teacher wants shorter passwords as they can't remember a 6+ char one (ok extreme but still same arguement), We wouldn't change it to 4 digit passwords just to please them. As it's a huge security hole.

    Same reason to not letting anyone deploy any software they want. If it's valid software for teaching it'll get deployed by the IT team, if it's not valid/or insecure it won't.


    One of the big issues we have in our school is YouTube, We block it, and teachers want it. Even though it's illegal to rebroadcast it, and illegal to download vids off it, etc etc (ignoring any adult material/bad comments). Do you go for what's the law, and secure for kids, or what the teachers want? Can't have it both ways really.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    A lot of the "not happy" part is due to not getting what they want though. It's no different to if a teacher wants shorter passwords as they can't remember a 6+ char one (ok extreme but still same arguement), We wouldn't change it to 4 digit passwords just to please them. As it's a huge security hole.

    Same reason to not letting anyone deploy any software they want. If it's valid software for teaching it'll get deployed by the IT team, if it's not valid/or insecure it won't.
    There's nothing there I disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    One of the big issues we have in our school is YouTube, We block it, and teachers want it. Even though it's illegal to rebroadcast it, and illegal to download vids off it, etc etc (ignoring any adult material/bad comments). Do you go for what's the law, and secure for kids, or what the teachers want? Can't have it both ways really.
    I have never read anything that would lead me to believe it is illegal to show youtube videos in a classroom - in fact I am pretty confident it is explicitly legal.

    There is also a lot a grey between "illegal" and against youtube's "terms of service" (ie fair/personal use exemptions) but we too tell all staff it is against copyright laws to download videos. Many teachers using youtube have the videos embedded in subject or topic specific websites they or the faculties have created.

    if you have blocked youtube because teachers "might" download a video, yet it is legal in the UK to use it in class, then I would (politely) classify that as the IT dept making rules for their benefit that are detrimental to teaching and learning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    I have never read anything that would lead me to believe it is illegal to show youtube videos in a classroom - in fact I am pretty confident it is explicitly legal.

    There is also a lot a grey between "illegal" and against youtube's "terms of service" (ie fair/personal use exemptions) but we too tell all staff it is against copyright laws to download videos. Many teachers using youtube have the videos embedded in subject or topic specific websites they or the faculties have created.

    if you have blocked youtube because teachers "might" download a video, yet it is legal in the UK to use it in class, then I would (politely) classify that as the IT dept making rules for their benefit that are detrimental to teaching and learning.
    What grey area? It's their terms of use, and they own the copyright. If you break it it's illegal?

    You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content
    If you don't agree to the conditions, you don't use it.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve21 View Post
    What grey area? It's their terms of use, and they own the copyright. If you break it it's illegal?
    If you don't agree to the conditions, you don't use it.
    Have you really never heard of the Fair Use exemption to copyright? But that's beside the point. We can agree you shouldn't download youtube videos and I said we don't.

    But you've blocked it when it's legal to use in class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    But you've blocked it when it's legal to use in class.
    And once again you ignore every policy and rules set in place? Congrats... Fair use doesn't just mean you can view anything whenever you want as it clearly states if you read it not just link wikipedia.

    The same reason you have to buy licenses to record/view TV etc "EVEN" within schools. The ERA Licensing Scheme etc etc

    You can't just go "fair use" and broadcast whatever you want.

    You require an ERA Licence if you wish to use recordings of broadcasts as teaching resources. Open University programmes are covered by a separate licensing scheme. Certain rights may not be covered by ERA Members; recordings may be made of this material outside the ERA scheme under a separate licence.
    As an example for TV programmes. ^

    But as you've shown multiple times your way is right, and everyone else is wrong and just stupid so pretty pointless carrying on... *shrugs*

    Steve
    Last edited by Steve21; 11th August 2012 at 06:20 PM.

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    I don't think you read what I wrote - I said I agree youtube videos shouldn't be downloaded.

    However, I believe it is legal to show youtube videos in class. If it is not, please point out where I can see that law or condition or ToS or whatever.

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    As you edited your post I'll rephrase so you can comprehend.

    OK - don't copy/broadcast etc videos.

    However, it is not illegal, I believe, to show youtube videos in class via youtube or the embedded player, on a live internet link. if you think it is, show me where it says.

    On the other hand, if you have blocked youtube on the grounds that a teacher "might" download a video and hence break copyright just admit that.

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    And yes, the website supplied the embed code so I believe it's OK to post the image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    As you edited your post I'll rephrase so you can comprehend.
    Last edited by Steve21; Today at 05:20 PM.
    Your post: Today, 05:23 PM

    If it's really come down to just implying false play now, I think it's end of convo. I don't need to edit old posts to try to change what you said. You replied to my post as it was, so please don't try to be backhanded.

    If you want to run your school by letting them do what they want, in reference to accessing whatever they want, installing any unmanaged/illegal software etc be my guest. It's not me who is likely to end up on the wrong side of an enquiry when something goes wrong and all your private data is leaked etc etc.

    And apologies to everyone else, this has gone way off track, but just trying to get the point across which still seems to have failed

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdk View Post
    And that's for kids - I find it difficult to credit how any reasonable person would expect to provide teachers with any machine of which they were not the administrator, and I wouldn't expect any teacher to accept that they are not even trusted to have anything but a locked down machine. If you can't trust a teacher to be their own admin we may as well fire them all and shut up shop.
    Why? Not giving admin rights to "non-IT" members of staff is an accepted good practice in business that (in decent sized, sensible businesses that are comparable in size to the average school) is usually followed very closely, unless there is a strong business case for doing anything else.

    It's got very little to do with not trusting people and quite a lot to do with keeping support costs down, approving availability of IT facilities and acknowledging that regardless of "trust", everyone can make a mistake or get caught out by something, so its always good practice to minimise the possible consequences of such a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Where is your non locked down utopia now?? as you said its best effort so the parents could just put the onus back on your systems. Why do teachers need to install software anyway, you end up with a pack of stuffed machines full of every little bit of cack that promises to make their jobs easier by one or two spelling checks.

    What makes teachers so different to every other employee in the world. Most places that deal with a large amount of machines and have a need to get work done lock down the machines a little just to make sure that they can do all the menial unimportant stuff - like their jobs as opposed to installing the latest Apple coffee recomendation app. What makes teachers so much better and more responcible than all the other employees in the world. Here's a news flash for you, they are not. They are generally worse, with unions so powerful they would have to murder someone on CCTV to be fired they know they can get away with almost everything and they attempt to.
    it could be that most employees in the world, particularly in the windows world, have stuff locked down, aren't allowed to install software, draconian encryption policies, but in certain environments i've managed in the past where staff do creative work using apple machines, they dont work like the majority who've been provided with kiosk pc's, frustratingly poor performing thin clients and blackberry, in those rare situation it seems somewhat self-defeating to stop them from installing a bit of software that they've discovered or had recommended to them. There should be testing and approval processes in place, but most of the time the end user is the one who needs to be doing the extended testing anyway, because they're the one's who know how they intend to use the software. As IT support, i don't have the time or inclination to run through a gamut of procedures for testing software in a highly artificial way.

    You wouldn't want to stop from them using dropbox etc if it fits in with how they work in a non-blackbox, asset tagged locked down world. Where, let's face it, staff don't venture far from writing emails, reading emails, sending emails. That sort of IT support heavy environment is never the most agile, what with countless departments still holding on to XP, to enterprise apps that won't work well with stuff later than IE7. !!

    Then again, the creative users tend to have become more confident in using ICT, although they aren't necessarily power users. At the end of the day my approach with them has been not dissimilar to my approach with an admin member of staff using a heavily locked down machine with network drives. If there's a major problem with the machine and the most effective remedy from a time and effectiveness PoV is to reimage, there had better be a backup, the good thing with folk who use machines creatively effectively as standalone devices is they accept the need for THEMSELVES to take responsibility for backing up their data. Just as the one good thing to come out of 1:1 iPad schemes is shoving the idea of cloud or iTunes library based backup and syncing to the forefront as a USERS responsibility, not the responsibility of IT.
    And therefore if they want that data restored once the machine is reimaged, they don't turn it back onto IT support that data can't be recovered. IT's their own fault that they didn't learn and effectively utilise time machine or iCloud.

    I think you have to treat education somewhat differently, particularly because it's quite common for education to rollout new stuff long before enterprises pull their finger out, new OS, new devices, whole school 802.11n wireless.

    That agility alone is a good reason not to paint it with the corporate IT brush, where you may be scheduled to come off office 2003 sometime next year, if your lucky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alttab View Post
    in those rare situation it seems somewhat self-defeating to stop them from installing a bit of software that they've discovered or had recommended to them. There should be testing and approval processes in place, but most of the time the end user is the one who needs to be doing the extended testing anyway, because they're the one's who know how they intend to use the software. As IT support, i don't have the time or inclination to run through a gamut of procedures for testing software in a highly artificial way.
    That's a decision for the business to take, not the individual (regardless of whether its the individual in IT support saying "Computer Sez No" because they don't fancy the extra work or the user saying "but I want it *pout*") because having to wait for IT chafes on them. The organisation has to balance risks and requirements to reach a solution it is comfortable with.

    You wouldn't want to stop from them using dropbox etc if it fits in with how they work in a non-blackbox, asset tagged locked down world.
    Well actually the business might very well want to stop them using dropbox if it had concerns over user data leakage, data protection, or even just contractual requirements for how customer data is stored or processed, etc.

    Again, this is a business decision, not one for the individuals. I find individual users tend not to think of things in terms of problems they introduce, just the problems they solve, which is understandable but it underlines why the business must take some measure of control, even if it chooses to give most of that control back to the end users again, in order to ensure that the right balance is struck between its various requirements and obligations.

    Then again, the creative users tend to have become more confident in using ICT, although they aren't necessarily power users. At the end of the day my approach with them has been not dissimilar to my approach with an admin member of staff using a heavily locked down machine with network drives. If there's a major problem with the machine and the most effective remedy from a time and effectiveness PoV is to reimage, there had better be a backup, the good thing with folk who use machines creatively effectively as standalone devices is they accept the need for THEMSELVES to take responsibility for backing up their data.
    Well here's the rub. Many people want all of the privileges of a "user controlled device" with none of the responsibilities.
    So what about "user education and training" to get them out of that rut, I hear you cry? And I'd reply "look at all the "user education and training" that's gone into trying to teach people not to fall for phishing emails and malware webpages and then look at how many people who STILL blindly click anything if they think it's going to get them some pictures of miley cyrus in the bathtub or a real live nigerian prince with money to burn.

    I think you have to treat education somewhat differently, particularly because it's quite common for education to rollout new stuff long before enterprises pull their finger out, new OS, new devices, whole school 802.11n wireless.

    That agility alone is a good reason not to paint it with the corporate IT brush, where you may be scheduled to come off office 2003 sometime next year, if your lucky.
    Well yes, but this is why educational IT is a specialist field of IT that requires domain knowledge to excel at. The same as supporting any other kind of business, to be honest.

    You seem to have a very jaded view of business IT by the way (which is fair enough), and seem quite happy to compare the worst of business IT to the best of "supporting creative users" as if there's no place on the dial between those two extremes, which seems a little unfair.
    Last edited by Roberto; 12th August 2012 at 12:12 AM.



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