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Hardware Thread, A server CPU question in Technical; Yep I am looking at the future possibility of using socket 2011 I7s as terminal servers instead of dual xeon ...
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    AButters's Avatar
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    Yep I am looking at the future possibility of using socket 2011 I7s as terminal servers instead of dual xeon as frankly the top end 6 core (12 thread) part will keep a dual 4 core xeon honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AButters View Post
    Yep I am looking at the future possibility of using socket 2011 I7s as terminal servers instead of dual xeon as frankly the top end 6 core (12 thread) part will keep a dual 4 core xeon honest.
    Or just use comarible xeons to start with TS though is probably the best place for this though as 10 or so users incovenienced by a crash is much better than a whole school. Sure it does not happen often but you do your best to keep the risk of such things as low as possible.

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    Thats the whole point - a comparible Xeon to start with (price wise) would have to be a Single 6 core Xeon and in performance terms that is not comparible (the Xeon being significantly slower).

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    Quote Originally Posted by AButters View Post
    Thats the whole point - a comparible Xeon to start with (price wise) would have to be a Single 6 core Xeon and in performance terms that is not comparible (the Xeon being significantly slower).

    Huh, current 6 core xeon = i7 plus some extra features - GPU

    both have 12 threads, the xeon has more cache.



    Compareing on price the i7 may go up against a quad core, 8 thread xeon though and for low reliability loads that may be a better way to go from an economic standpoint. You may be better for power use and liscencing costs with a bigger server and more clients per box. It all depends on your usage and expectations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    I think the point here is there is not enough of a cost saving on such a mission critical item as to look at a cheaper equivalent. I might not need Hyper-V now this very minute but in 2 or 3 years, even in a primary environment, I probably will.

    Again, in this environment ECC ram is probably not essential, but for the £50 or so it will cost as a premium it may save that in uptime over its life.

    If the migration to cloud based MIS systems is within a year or two, the need for 2/3 servers becomes redundant when you can get away with 1.
    ECC ram has little to do with server uptime, the error correction in theory is there to reduce the risk of your data / OS becoming corrupted by a faulty stick of ram how often it makes a difference over standard ram I don't know but why would you take the risk on a server?

    Cloud based MIS solutions won't reduce the requirement for having more than 1 server you should already be running things like WSUS, Sophos etc... on member servers not on your domain controller. It irkes me that people think they no longer need servers once they move to an online MIS, where are you going to host the network printers, where are you going to host the MIS common drive, where are you going to host the MIS users home directories etc... Our MIS server is also a DC so we would lose a DC and increase the load on our PDC slowing down network logins as well. Our admin server gets backed up remotely every single night so the data they have is safe even if the school burns down, that is simply not an option due to the costs involved and the speed of our internet connection to even contemplate it for our curric server.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Huh, current 6 core xeon = i7 plus some extra features - GPU

    both have 12 threads, the xeon has more cache.
    You are forgetting to factor in clock speed into the equation. £pound for £pound xeons are considerably lower clocked than the I7s.

    EG:

    Intel Xeon E5-2667, S2011, Sandy Bridge, Six Core, 2.9GHz, 15MB Cache, 130W, OEM £957.42

    Intel Core i7 3960X Extreme (C2), S 2011, Sandybridge-E, Six Core, 3.3GHz, 15MB Smart Cache, 130W, OEM £649.17

    The I7s extra 0.4ghz on each core makes a big difference in the real world plus the fact that it's ~30% cheaper. Those kind of stats make a big difference if your building a terminal server farm on a budget. As for power usage - as long as you spec a decent 90+% efficient PSU on the i7 there will be no energy efficiency penalty compared to a single xeon box – in fact is may work out cheaper to run as chances are low end single CPU xeon servers do not have super efficient PSUs

    Either way - choice is good and we do have choice over what we buy.

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    @AButters - I adressed the pricing bit and pretty much said the exact same thing in the second bit of my post. Myself I'd be more likely to go dual socket, dusl PSU xeons but that is for our requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToyHeartsFan View Post
    ECC ram has little to do with server uptime, the error correction in theory is there to reduce the risk of your data / OS becoming corrupted by a faulty stick of ram how often it makes a difference over standard ram I don't know but why would you take the risk on a server?

    Cloud based MIS solutions won't reduce the requirement for having more than 1 server you should already be running things like WSUS, Sophos etc... on member servers not on your domain controller. It irkes me that people think they no longer need servers once they move to an online MIS, ....snip

    Sorry for my somewhat flippant reply, but, here in the real world, I dont have a budget that allows me to fund and support multiple servers for single roles and its not very efficient to do so.
    My PDC is my print server, my sophos server etc. and my admin server is my secondary DC and DFS replica. I would quite happily condense down to a single physical server and still function with no issues. If you were a pessimistic person you could introduce a Microserver with a Hyper-V replica of your PDC/ a secondary DC/ whatever method you decide to fall back on.


    So in reply, cloud based MIS WILL reduce or remove the need for a "dedicated MIS server" but it will depend on the individual situation and requirement. My point is you don't need to be running expensive servers to provide a school with its ICT. Were a Infant & Nursery, not Google, I don't need a server farm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    Sorry for my somewhat flippant reply, but, here in the real world, I dont have a budget that allows me to fund and support multiple servers for single roles and its not very efficient to do so.
    My PDC is my print server, my sophos server etc. and my admin server is my secondary DC and DFS replica. I would quite happily condense down to a single physical server and still function with no issues. If you were a pessimistic person you could introduce a Microserver with a Hyper-V replica of your PDC/ a secondary DC/ whatever method you decide to fall back on.


    So in reply, cloud based MIS WILL reduce or remove the need for a "dedicated MIS server" but it will depend on the individual situation and requirement. My point is you don't need to be running expensive servers to provide a school with its ICT. Were a Infant & Nursery, not Google, I don't need a server farm
    Sophos say:
    "It is recommended, for security reasons, that Enterprise Console is not installed on a Domain Controller. This is in part due to Microsoft's recommendation not to install Microsoft SQL Server on a DC. It is also likely that additional security settings have been configured on a DC which could prevent Enterprise Console installing; one such problem is referenced in article: 116437." - You are of course free to ignore both sophos and microsoft (as link2ict frequently do when installing enterprise console) and install Enterprise console on your PDC if that is what you want to do.

    "multiple servers for single roles" "running expensive servers" They don't have to be single roles and they dont have to be expensive servers either; Why don't other schools use their old servers for none critical roles like we do when we replace a server instead of just sending them off for scrap especially when we are all supposed to be saving money? Things like Sophos and WSUS generate a lot of network traffic and disk IO if you are a tiny school then you might get away with it but it will slow your network down. WSUS is a godsend for keeping the workstations upto date but it hammers the disks in the server I really wouldnt want it on a PDC. We are a primary also but a lot larger i.e. over 700 kids so we probably have a lot more workstations than you do so spreading the load helps.

    Our Business manager seemed to think something along the same lines as you i.e. she can ignore the fact that the admin server is out of warranty because an online MIS is coming and it will be the solution to everything and they won't need to spend any money on servers...

    It will only cost 18.5k (per year) to upgrade our internet connection so we can use all of these new wonderful online solutions and then we can get rid of the admin server which would cost us a couple of grand every 5 years to replace, its going to save us a fortune isn't it
    Last edited by ToyHeartsFan; 30th March 2012 at 04:28 PM. Reason: typo

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    You have a warranty on your servers? Luxury!

    £18.5k a year, wow, what's that for? We have a synchronous 10Mb and run our remote backup, could based systems and IP phones over it no problems.

    If you haven't noticed, I'm being a blatant troll. We are a 4 form primary, 2 nursery with over 1000 pupils and no I dont run everything on one server.
    But that said, funding is tight, and despite what MS or sophos say, ideal world scenarios are exactly that.

    On a side note, keeping a dual PSU, older inefficient CPU servers running 24/7 as a sophos server will get the eco mentalists fuming! ;-)

    Woo holiday time

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    You have a warranty on your servers? Luxury!

    £18.5k a year, wow, what's that for? We have a synchronous 10Mb and run our remote backup, could based systems and IP phones over it no problems.

    If you haven't noticed, I'm being a blatant troll. We are a 4 form primary, 2 nursery with over 1000 pupils and no I dont run everything on one server.
    But that said, funding is tight, and despite what MS or sophos say, ideal world scenarios are exactly that.

    On a side note, keeping a dual PSU, older inefficient CPU servers running 24/7 as a sophos server will get the eco mentalists fuming! ;-)

    Woo holiday time
    Well I dont think the 8 year old ex admin server is or any of the others now - waves bye bye to Tempus but it is a good idea that if anything is under warranty (which other than a handful of projectors it isn't) then it should be the servers...

    Dual PSU no problem there our Elonex server has 3 psus and keeps my office nice and warm...

    As eco as I like to be the electricity bill does not come out of my meagre ict budget and scrapping working hardware is hardly environmentally friendly. I've just managed to replace our 6 year old ict suite of 3.2Ghz Pentium D's with refurbished core2duos so that should keep the eco warriors happy (dont tell them I'm thinking of keeping some to replace the celerons).

    18.5 is what lickit (our old head called them that not me) want to upgrade from 10 to 100 because they cant offer anything in between; we are quite heavy users our teachers stream a lot of youtube clips etc... and I think our internet connection will start to struggle when we have an online MIS so I have started looking at the options I think the one currently favoured by manglement is sticking our heads in a bucket of sand and hoping it all goes away. PS we use online backup for admin but I worked out that if we wanted to use it for curric as well a restore would take about 4 days on a 10Mb connection (assuming no one else was using it)...

    What is this holiday u speak of I have never heard of such a thing now go get back in your server room



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