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Hardware Thread, New PCs... i3 or i5? in Technical; Originally Posted by Effluo I completely agree and you're dead right that SSD are the only upgrade which will make ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Effluo View Post
    I completely agree and you're dead right that SSD are the only upgrade which will make a significant difference to the daily speed in running ALL the PC's in a school and that they would be a much smarter investment than i5's, but both are still overkill when you look at the price : performance ratio.


    If this were the case, then SSD would be a no-brainer and a good investment, but considering the prices you quoted on the op in your other thread.(56)
    And considering you could buy 250GB Samsung F3's (some of the fastest disc drives going) for around 25 each, you'll find that your SSD's cost over twice as much. (unless I'm missing something)

    Around 30/machine, if you can afford to have only 40GB of storage it's not a bad upgrade, not a bad upgrade at all.
    Although, there would still be a decision to be made and I can respect that you felt it was worth it, but I'd take a bit more convincing.

    It's certainly a close one
    the 300gb WD Raptors are about 120 vs 60

    I appreicate you get less capacity on the SSD but its still faster for the most part depending on which SSD then a WD Raptor but again depends on the users needs, do they need more storage space or are they after faster read / write speeds etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Again, you're doing what I complained about earlier - a 'one size fits all' approach. Also, you specifically say you've not worked in education - you're a reseller, so you do not know the day to do demands of our equipment.

    Also, you're basing your view on what software does with the chips now, and not in 4 years time etc...
    I don't know where you're getting the impression that I'm suggesting that, "one size fits all". Most of my research and the work I do and done in the past involves getting the right PC and the best value for the specific user's needs.

    Have I worked in Education? No, is it relevant? Yes totally, but not necessarily with what we're talking about here. We're talking about computer hardware and it's price performance benefits, value to the end user, this is something which I've been working and studying/researching for a number of years.
    I figure, when buying or building a new computer, for an organisation or just for yourself you should first look at the specific needs, secondly look at the budget and then look at the benchmarks. That's how you get the best value and the process doesn't change no matter what organisation you're in.

    I also noticed there that you spoke about futureproofing and how software will work with software in 4 years from now?
    Well sadly future-proofing, well it doesn't really exist. If there is any kind of future-proofing example they tend to come in very minor forms. (ie USB 3.0 - 2nd PCI-E slot for future GPU improvement)


    Finally you're calling me presumptious, well I am not so sure about that, but I am really quite sceptical that i5's will lead to an improvement of students as you said it, "learning things" :/

    That doesn't make any sense to me

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Effluo View Post
    If this were the case, then SSD would be a no-brainer and a good investment, but considering the prices you quoted on the op in your other thread.(56)
    And considering you could buy 250GB Samsung F3's (some of the fastest disc drives going) for around 25 each, you'll find that your SSD's cost over twice as much. (unless I'm missing something)

    Around 30/machine, if you can afford to have only 40GB of storage it's not a bad upgrade, not a bad upgrade at all.
    Although, there would still be a decision to be made and I can respect that you felt it was worth it, but I'd take a bit more convincing.

    It's certainly a close one
    The main factor for going SSDs was for the Lower heat production - the building these PCs are now running in is just under 5 years old and never had air con installed in any of the 3 ICT rooms, the heat created by the PCs in there prior to the change over would make a day like to day literally unbareable to work in. We had them on for 24 hours solid starting yesterday mid day and today it's a perfectly comfortable temperature in there with the windows closed on a hot summers day, the other benefit of this is that the equipment should, in theory, last longer due to the lower room temperature.

    Then when you throw in the huge Performance advantage and lower power consumption i'm sure you'll agree that makes everyone, including the finance manager who pays the electricity bills, a lot happier

    EDIT: funny how it took someone who doesn't work in school IT to understand my point on the processor front too, but at the same time, not surprising.
    Last edited by mrbios; 3rd August 2011 at 06:54 PM.

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    Kind of worried about replying to your other thread now but you definitely miss the point. SSD and SAS are the drive type, you can get 10k RPM SAS drives which are probably more sensible than using SATA for higher IOP loads ... anyway SSD is a far too general term to use, theres at least 3 generations out there with different controllers and NAND, not to mention the 'benchmarks' for sandforce controllers are often skewed because they use compression, on un compressible data they trend towards intel's best drives.

    Again i3 shouldn't really be compared to pentiums, completely different CPU(IGP).

    We have thin clients in some of our IT rooms now (5w) but I expect the users to use the AC and/or open the windows (heh), because 30+ humans pump out a few watts too
    Last edited by nicklec; 3rd August 2011 at 08:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicklec View Post
    Kind of worried about replying to your other thread now but you definitely miss the point. SSD and SAS are the drive type, you can get 10k RPM SAS drives which are probably more sensible than using SATA for higher IOP loads ... anyway SSD is a far too general term to use, theres at least 3 generations out there with different controllers and NAND, not to mention the 'benchmarks' for sandforce controllers are often skewed because they use compression, on un compressible data they trend towards intel's best drives.

    Again i3 shouldn't really be compared to pentiums, completely different CPU(IGP).

    We have thin clients in some of our IT rooms now (5w) but I expect the users to use the AC and/or open the windows (heh), because 30+ humans pump out a few watts too
    I completely understand the difference between SAS and SSD, not sure where i've shown to have confused the two? My point is that SAS drives are a waste of money for the vast majority of uses schools are using them for, people on these boards are filling there servers and SANs with them and they're complete overkill for the jobs. SATA HDDs can do the jobs people are buying them for without breaking a sweat at half the cost. I'd not brung SSDs in to the equation with regards to the server and storage environment, they're purely desktop use only. I will yield to the fact they (SAS drives) may have a use for terminal servers, but then i don't have a great opinion of terminal servers but that's a personal thing rather than a technical reason

    The i3s and Pentium Gxxx series should indeed be compared, they're here to do the same job, i'm unsure why you wouldn't want to compare them?

    And i do agree a classroom of kids is far more heat than a classroom of PCs, but less heat output from PCs, as i've stated before will also increase the lifespan of the components within the room and make a more comfortable working space

    EDIT: I thought i'd look in to why you wouldn't want to compare the i3 to the Gxxx series and i'll point out my findings... These are the differences between the i3 2100T and the G620T:
    hyperthreading - Small performance gain in certain scenarios, not a lot of use on a student PC
    AVX CPU extension - for virtualisation, no use on a student PC
    Intel quick sync - Not an issue unless you're using them for a media PC as far as i can tell
    intel intru 3D compatible - Not an issue unless you're using them for a media PC as far as i can tell
    intel insider compatible - No use in a school environment i don't think
    Intel clear video HD - Not an issue unless you're using them for a media PC as far as i can tell
    Higher memory specification - Higher memory bandwidth allowing for a faster system, this being the only advantagous feature of the lot doesn't warrant the added cost.

    Overall the processors are very similar, both are second generation sandy bridges with the i3 just having a lot of media and virtualisation capabilities (and the obvious higher clock speed than the 620T). I don't claim to know the ins and outs of these CPUs in depth, but i certainly can't see any reason why you wouldn't compare one to the other on both price and performance? It's like saying "well an amd is very different to an intel, so we won't compare them"
    Last edited by mrbios; 3rd August 2011 at 08:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Effluo View Post
    I
    If this were the case, then SSD would be a no-brainer and a good investment, but considering the prices you quoted on the op in your other thread.(56)
    And considering you could buy 250GB Samsung F3's (some of the fastest disc drives going) for around 25 each, you'll find that your SSD's cost over twice as much. (unless I'm missing something)
    Faster boot times would make a big difference. Currently our classrooms keep PC's running all day, mostly because the boot time is long enough that it would take too big a chunk out of a lesson if they weren't sitting booted up and ready. I'd guess SSD's could pay for themselves in a reasonable time if we could then shut machines down during breaks and lunch. They don't need to have huge capacity as students keep files on the network storage, not on local discs.

    Have to agree with much of the comments on schools wasting money on SAS. We have 2500 students, 300 teachers and another few hundred associate staff. Our SATA drives remain unconcerned dealing with peak demand.

  7. Thanks to pcstru from:

    mrbios (3rd August 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Currently our classrooms keep PC's running all day, mostly because the boot time is long enough that it would take too big a chunk out of a lesson if they weren't sitting booted up and ready. I'd guess SSD's could pay for themselves in a reasonable time if we could then shut machines down during breaks and lunch.
    Something I certainly hadn't considered. I guess getting the teachers to push the students to shut down the computers will be a task in itself though
    Well worth it of course. Thanks for the added insight

    SSD's get another +1 XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Effluo View Post
    Something I certainly hadn't considered. I guess getting the teachers to push the students to shut down the computers will be a task in itself though
    Well worth it of course. Thanks for the added insight

    SSD's get another +1 XD
    But that is where you use GPO to change the logoff button to shutdown and only allow them to do that on those machines - then it takes about 12 seconds to power on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    But that is where you use GPO to change the logoff button to shutdown and only allow them to do that on those machines - then it takes about 12 seconds to power on here.
    Combine that with impero and the teachers can power off and power on entire classes themselves

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    Ok I'll throw it into the mix - the fastest PC in the school at the moment is my PC that sits on the back of my monitor.

    Its a Zotac barebones custom build and the key part of it is the AMD Fusion APU sitting inside. Smaller than a postage stamp but with enough power for me to do EVERYTHING!
    and that includes-

    Photoshop CS2 (largest I've worked on was A1)
    Windows Live Movie Maker HD editing
    All the office applications
    VirtualBox (8Gb of RAM and I've had about 4 VMs running on it at the same time)
    A million IE9 tabs (well maybe not a million but you get the idea...)
    and everything else that a IT tech does....

    The processor is the E-350 (1.6ghz dual core and a 6310 graphics core) but the key part of it is the OCZ Vertex 3 SSD inside which kicks out fast application load times.

    So my upshot is....for classroom use (even on multimedia editing) the world of the i3 is limited to low end gaming (and my E-350 runs Crysis 2 at low level anyway) and the thing you need to look at is the storage/RAM - that is where the 'speed' of a modern PC is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbios View Post
    Combine that with impero and the teachers can power off and power on entire classes themselves
    they can here but would require them to walk around the room!

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    they can here but would require them to walk around the room!
    No WOL?

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    To wake them up yes but not shut them down

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    To wake them up yes but not shut them down
    Shutdown can be done from impero unless you've removed that setting from them? or you could make a little batch script with shutdown -t X -m \\PCname (where x = a time in seconds)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbios View Post
    Shutdown can be done from impero unless you've removed that setting from them? or you could make a little batch script with shutdown -t X -m \\PCname (where x = a time in seconds)
    I don't have impero and the shutdown script only works in they are local admins which i've just removed from all teachers!

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