Hardware Thread, Wireless Access Points and Radio Waves in Technical; Hi all,
We have here two trollies full of 32 laptops for our students to use. until recently, they were ...
14th October 2009, 01:47 PM #1
Wireless Access Points and Radio Waves
We have here two trollies full of 32 laptops for our students to use. until recently, they were unusabe because there was no wireless on site. The Governors have decided that we are allowed two access points in one classroom as long as they are situated 1 meter above the height of the ceiling! their argument is that they are worried about any 'waves' or 'radiation' coming from them and making the children grow a 2nd head!!!
I have suggested that it would be a good idea to attach an access point to each of the trollies to allow them to be fully mobile.
My question is this... is there any information that i can give them or is there a way of measuring something to show that these access points are safe and that we wont be creating the next generation of X-men??
14th October 2009, 02:06 PM #2
i bet you'd expect me to reply
I may have more information for you.
firstly to assume that non-ionising radiation ( such as wifi, and mobile phones ) does not damage cells, or dna etc is incorrect. Lots of studies have been done showing just that.
However the amount of damage done depends upon exposure time, and getting into perspective the 'damage done' compared to other things , e.g CRT monitors etc.
The thing to ensure that worries are reduced, is to have the ability to switch off the wireless access point when they are not being used. ( although evidence shows that damage is mostly done when data is being transmitted ) This then further limits any exposure to the radiation.
I'm afraid there is masses of information telling you that wifi, and mobile phones are safe, and equally as much saying that they are not. I hope you will take the time to read both sides of the argument, and draw your own conclusions.
14th October 2009, 02:48 PM #3
The bottom line is that there is too much opinion and not enough definitive data one way or the other without someone calling the other a nutjob so the proof that you will be wanting simply won't exist I'm afraid.
Originally Posted by farmerste
It will come down to a judgement call as to whether the school feel that any assumed, proposed and so far unproven (long term) risk exists and/or worth it.
Putting them on trolleys and in a situation would obviously provide the best of both worlds... putting them in the ceiling though is pointless and counter productive...
14th October 2009, 02:54 PM #4
- Rep Power
We have dealt with a parent query about this. The World health organisation is a great resource. Here is a good place to start :-
WHO | Electromagnetic fields and public health
Bottom line I believe, is using a microwave for 2 mins exposes you to more radiation than a network point would for x months or something like that. So there is more chance of them growing 6 toes from warming up your baked beans than accessing the web.
We of course compromised and our AP's shut down over night.
14th October 2009, 03:15 PM #5
- Rep Power
shut down overnight, how does that help? is it a boarding school!
14th October 2009, 03:17 PM #6
- Rep Power
Correct. The concern related to a point close a dormitory!
Originally Posted by rogerblue
14th October 2009, 03:20 PM #7
- Rep Power
Variable Power AP/Router
Or purchase Access Point/Router that has variable power output and set it to the lowest setting.
With it being on your portable trolly in the classroom you should not have reception problems.
Good luck, when people are convinced of the "radiation" thing they have a tendency to not think rationally.
14th October 2009, 03:21 PM #8
Another good site, with it being the UK's health advice agency, is the HPA - Wi-Fi page.
15th October 2009, 07:05 PM #9
caution is always good
i would always apply a cautionary approach, especially with the above mentioned links , as they are both 'business friendly' which i assume means revenue and profit firstly before people.
If you like to fashion your own foil hats like me i'd try
Home - WiFiinschools.org.uk
TETRA: ‘thousands of times below recommended levels’ from the national research-based TETRA Airwave safety campaign
here are some scientific papers published on the effects :-
Powerwatch - Scientific Papers
please read the intros on each page.
I hope this will help illustrate that there is indeed a great deal of work being done into the effects of radiation from mobiles, and wi-fi etc, and it is not just being done by 'nutjobs' .
15th October 2009, 07:13 PM #10
Sorry farmerste, but your 'cautionary' approach seems to simply mean 'i think that all the evidence that wifi does no harm is no use'. Every post you make on the subject starts with you saying you are being balanced, followed by a bunch of anti-wifi stuff.
Originally Posted by farmerste
The HPA is a government agency, aimed at providing information to everyone - the NHS, education, businesses, and home users. Same with the WHO. Stating they're 'business friendly' as in 'lying' is simply fearmongering.
If you have any evidence (read scientific studies proving it is harmful (just noticed you've included one link, which I shall have a look at when i'm not about to fall asleep), and not sites which were set up specifically to call wireless technologies evil and try and get them removed from all public parts of life) please provide them but if not, please stop spouting nonsense!
Add in the fact that whatever people say now, wireless devices will not disappear. They will not become less pervasive in society - they are too convenient.
Last edited by localzuk; 15th October 2009 at 07:15 PM.
15th October 2009, 08:05 PM #11
the only 'nonsense' spouted is done by the business funded so-called independent agencies, this nonsense is then repeated by those who simply like, or are hooked on this technology.
It is like questioning someones religious beliefs !, i don't know your own reasoning, but i have come from the viewpoint that 'all this is rubbish' to one where i think it is not, but it has been made to look rediculous though speculation, and fear-mongering to quote yourself. if you can be bothered to sort the nonsense out from the science i think you may change your viewpoint.
bedtime reading perhaps ? :-
Bending Science: How Special Interests Corrupt Public Health Research
perhaps i have had my faith in the HPA, and the WHO dashed somewhat over the years, as the HPA did an amazing cover up over the 'mad cow/CJD' links a few years ago, and the WHO is currently spending far too much on anti-smoking, instead of dealing with aids, and malaria in the developing world, because of politics.
The uk government (and others) makes billions from the mobile phone industry, and is currently exercising restraint in scientific research, because of this.
if you actually bothered to read my comments, you might see that the way i would deal with any such fears is to ensure that you switch off WAP's if possible when not in use. This idea could be applied to phone masts in the same way, and most could be off during the night, and some could be on and off on a schedule.
i hope my faith in the HPA, and WHO will return someday.
15th October 2009, 08:47 PM #12
Its a no-win scenario as its usually very tricky to prove that something doesn't cause harm in the long term - my dad used to say that breathing in air will eventually do you in and who's to say he wasn't right!
Ask the governors if they have any data to show that putting them in the roof would be better for the long term health of the pupils
25th October 2009, 12:23 AM #13
Ok, now that I've received neg-rep for this, I thought I'd speak again...
There are a grand total of 3 papers regarding wifi on the site you listed farmerste. Of those, 2 of them come to no conclusion (according to that site, but I can't confirm as they both require subscriptions to actually read them), with one coming to the conclusion that nearly all situations result in RF strengths approach the limits (ie. still under those limits, set in Switzerland), with one conclusion stating that at very close range to a device, you could exceed those limits - and the only one that actually does is one where they've had to extrapolate a result for async transmission mode with a DECT base station, not wifi). If you look at the international levels set by the ICNIRP, *all* results were well below.
Looking specifically at that rather bizarre summary paper, the results for wifi come in at a max E-Field strength (at 20cm) of 3.9V/m - with ICNIRP limits of 61 and ONIR limit of 6V/m (with the note that the ONIR limit is actually for fixed transmitters with ERP of >6W (and if you might note, 6W is a very strong transmitter!!!)).
So, again, I ask you for any scientific evidence that wifi is dangerous.
Thanks to localzuk from:
webman (25th October 2009)
25th October 2009, 08:50 AM #14
How do you get neg-rep on this forum?
25th October 2009, 09:01 AM #15
By clicking the little weighing scales in the bottom left of a post, and choosing the option.
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