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Hardware Thread, Sun 7410 Unified Storage + SAN/Userspaces Question in Technical; Originally Posted by Ricko I've been testing tools4ever today using the 7000 series simulator. It works fine to create user ...
  1. #16
    Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricko
    I've been testing tools4ever today using the 7000 series simulator.
    It works fine to create user folders within a share set up with the Sun web interface.
    Rick - This is great, and thanks very much for your email! I'll have a play with it later on and do some testing. It's a shame about the quotas, but I fully appreciate this is simply because we've become used to relying on FSRM on a Windows box, not because of any limits of the hardware. I think that right now making it easy to set up the folders and permissions is a bigger issue than quotas.

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    can i ask which netapp box you currently have ? A fas 250 or a fas 270 is it ?
    had you basically maxed out the storage capacity on your netapp, also which feature licenses are you running ie snaprestore ?
    torledo - We've got a FAS2020 so it's the bottom end, rather than a higher-spec 2050. There was nothing wrong with it in any way, but it's used primarily as our D2D backup box. I got a very good end-of-year deal on it last year so snapped it up, but the problem I have is that we struggle with their prices in general. I had a quote from a NetApp supplier for the whole virtualisation and storage project, and while it was very nice, it was also very expensive! I couldn't justify tying the school into a provider that we could only just afford each time, even with a discount, as it would be unmaintainable in the long term. I still think of NetApp as a top-tier provider, but when you compare the Sun prices and features (Fishworks BUI, D-Trace, etc) then I think they're getting ever closer.

    Licenses are something like Nearstore, Snaprestore, A-SIS (limited to 500GB, absolutely mad), CIFS and iSCSI. Knowing that all of these features are provided free by Sun, and that any future upgrades will be no extra cost is a big plus. I know the whole open-source open-storage thing can be over-hyped, but in this case I think it's a real plus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ric_
    @Duke: Have you upgraded the 'firmware' image on the box? The latest release(s) have fixed some Windows ACL problems.
    Ric_ - Yep, I'm sure the initial permissions problem I had was down to me, I just need to set up the share and root level ACLs properly. Still in the early days of testing and figuring out best practices!

    Quote Originally Posted by teejay
    OK, got roaming profiles and users set up and live on our Sun 7110.
    This is the easiest way of doing it [...]
    teejay - Awesome mate, cheers! I'm going to go through your post and Rick's emails and I think I'll be in business! As your setup sounds very similar to our requirements, how are you handling quotas, or do you not find it to be an issue?

    Thanks all!
    Chris

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    You can put a quota on the share, but not individual folders. Maybe one to nag Phil about!

    TBH, we don't bother. If they start eating into the space, then we start checking into things, but with the amount of media based courses we now run then quotas are just a pain.

    The advantage of sticking them all in one project is that you can set up the snapshots on the project, which is a very usefull feature, integrates extremely well with the Windows previous versions client and doesn't have random hissy fits like Windows snapshot tend to (for us anyway).

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    Quote Originally Posted by teejay View Post
    You can put a quota on the share, but not individual folders. Maybe one to nag Phil about!

    TBH, we don't bother. If they start eating into the space, then we start checking into things, but with the amount of media based courses we now run then quotas are just a pain.

    The advantage of sticking them all in one project is that you can set up the snapshots on the project, which is a very usefull feature, integrates extremely well with the Windows previous versions client and doesn't have random hissy fits like Windows snapshot tend to (for us anyway).
    Thanks for the mention. Regarding the quotas - all will be revealed tomorrow for you Trevor. Other guys - see my posting about the NDA presentation. you'll then see what is happening with the S7000 series :-)

    Cheers,

    Phil

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    teejay - It'd be cool if Sun could consider doing something like that for quotas (e.g. apply to subfolders, not the share itself). It's only really needed for something like userspaces, but I would imagine CIFS users would be a fairly common use for these boxes, particularly in education.

    Thanks for the reply,
    Chris

    EDIT - Phil, can't wait until the end of the month!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Rick


    torledo - We've got a FAS2020 so it's the bottom end, rather than a higher-spec 2050. There was nothing wrong with it in any way, but it's used primarily as our D2D backup box. I got a very good end-of-year deal on it last year so snapped it up, but the problem I have is that we struggle with their prices in general. I had a quote from a NetApp supplier for the whole virtualisation and storage project, and while it was very nice, it was also very expensive! I couldn't justify tying the school into a provider that we could only just afford each time, even with a discount, as it would be unmaintainable in the long term. I still think of NetApp as a top-tier provider, but when you compare the Sun prices and features (Fishworks BUI, D-Trace, etc) then I think they're getting ever closer.

    Licenses are something like Nearstore, Snaprestore, A-SIS (limited to 500GB, absolutely mad), CIFS and iSCSI. Knowing that all of these features are provided free by Sun, and that any future upgrades will be no extra cost is a big plus. I know the whole open-source open-storage thing can be over-hyped, but in this case I think it's a real plus.

    Chris
    chris

    thanks for the info. the 2050 isn't really that much higher spec than the 2020. What it offers is expansion of ports via a single PCI card per controller. This would allow you to say bump up the number of ethernet ports for NAS or iscsi by four ports per controller. The 2020 is restricted to just 2 ports per controller.

    The 2050 also accomodates 8 more disks in the base shelf - so 20 disks vs 12, and apart from a memory boost it's functionally on a par with the 2020. I understand your reservations for scaling such devices. Adding additional disks to a 2020/2050 isn't cheap!!! if i was buying netapp or the ibm n series [oem'ed from netapp] i'd buy everythign i needed up front and take advantage of discounts that way....adding later is unlikely to provide the same sort of discounts.

    I agree with you about the licensing aspect, but i don't really think you need licences beyond snaprestore for your environment. NFS might be handy but it is pricey as are features like flexclones. But the a-sis dedupe feature is now available when the unit is used as primary storage at no additional cost. No need to convert it to a nearstore appliance [which is also free but...], the nearstore appliance actually requires additional licensing in the form of snapvault secondary storage licensing to be used as a true D2D appliance. It's pretty needless expense unless you have two filers in which case you can use the very cool snapmirror/snapvault combo. Yet again, it's expensive.

    hopefully what sun have done will encourage the likes of netapp and emc to review the pricing for their low end kit. Most of this stuff netapp charge really should be free. And the price difference between a single controller vs dual controller netapp box with CFO licensing is insane imho. dual controlelrs should be as standard and a lower entry price point.

    now that you've got your 7140s the 2020 is handy as a d2d box, but i think it would work really nice as primary storage somewhere in the org. If you've got 4TB in the 2020 why not use it for your file serving needs ? and keep an eye on the enhancements to single instance storage features of the box.
    sis for primary storage is relatively new still.

    if you've got dual controllers i'd definitely try and use the 2020 as primary storage.

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    Hi torledo, thanks for your reply.

    The plan is eventually to get another 7410 and mirror them across the site. As the 7410 has four Ethernet sockets and can easily be expanded to more (the FAS2020 is just a single controller unfortunately, couldn't afford a dual one), plus has the performance boost from the Flash accelerators and is 22TB rather than just 4TB, I think it makes the most sense for it to be our primary storage unit.

    I completely appreciate your point about making better use of it though. We needed D2D backup that would offer us iSCSI and CIFS, and I got a really good deal on the price so it made sense at the time. We purchased it with the full knowledge that we wouldn't be making full use of all its features for a while.

    As you say, a lot of the very expensive stuff from NetApp should/could be free, and they'd probably get a lot more lower-end customers. Regarding NFS - it's been suggested NFS will get better performance than iSCSI for use with VMware virtual machines in ESX, anyone have any feedback on that?

    Cheers,
    Chris

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    Hi Chris,

    From what I have read on the 7410 performance testing blog, NFS seems to be considered the fastest protocol available on the 7410. This would go for any use including ESXi storage.

    Rick

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    Thanks Rick, I'll have to give NFS a go. Once I get some time (unlikely at this rate!) I'll set up a couple of ESX servers and do some proper testing. I've always leaned towards VMware as it's the more established product, but it's nice to see a lot of people going with Xen as it seems so simple to use...

    Cheers,
    Chris

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    The other advantage in using NFS is that the analytics you can get from the system is better than iSCSI

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    And we all know how much everyone loves the D-Trace graphs!

    I'm off to have a play with the 7410, cheers guys!

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    And we all know how much everyone loves the D-Trace graphs!

    I'm off to have a play with the 7410, cheers guys!
    Boys and their toys

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by linescanner View Post
    Boys and their toys
    Funny cos it's true!

    To all - If any of you reading this are thinking about getting a Sun S7000 box, I can tell you it's absolutely awesome. Thanks to Rick and teejay I've just got a proof-of-concept working with user accounts and it really flies! Have a go with the Sun S7000 Simulator and check out D-Trace, being able to actually see exactly which clients and files are using up your bandwidth is brilliant.

    Big thanks to Andy and Rick at Cutter Project and Phil at Sun - give them a shout if you're thinking about buying one of these things.

    Cheers,
    Chris

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    Hebdenlad (12th May 2009), linescanner (13th May 2009), Ricko (12th May 2009), teejay (12th May 2009)

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    @Duke
    Yes, finding it really impressive on the user accounts, got just short of 1,200 pupil accounts on one 7110 at the moment, with around 550 desktops logging on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Funny cos it's true!

    To all - If any of you reading this are thinking about getting a Sun S7000 box, I can tell you it's absolutely awesome. Thanks to Rick and teejay I've just got a proof-of-concept working with user accounts and it really flies! Have a go with the Sun S7000 Simulator and check out D-Trace, being able to actually see exactly which clients and files are using up your bandwidth is brilliant.

    Big thanks to Andy and Rick at Cutter Project and Phil at Sun - give them a shout if you're thinking about buying one of these things.

    Cheers,
    Chris
    AAw, I'm blushing now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Hi torledo, thanks for your reply.

    The plan is eventually to get another 7410 and mirror them across the site. As the 7410 has four Ethernet sockets and can easily be expanded to more (the FAS2020 is just a single controller unfortunately, couldn't afford a dual one), plus has the performance boost from the Flash accelerators and is 22TB rather than just 4TB, I think it makes the most sense for it to be our primary storage unit.

    Cheers,
    Chris
    i know what you mean about the cost implications of going with dual controllers. It's not just the additional controller price but most of the added cost feature options have a bump in price for licensing for two controllers. madness.

    infact, i've been expecting an array like the S7000 for sun for some time. Ever since i read about the little spat between netapp and sun, which i believe involved netapp bringing an action against sun claiming zfs violated wafl patents. hebdenland would be aware of that...not sure if it's still ongoing. I new then zfs plus sun hardware all packaged up could be a game changer....although i suspect it's a little bit too early and netapp and emc still have considerable market share

    . although perhaps netapp are using storevault to compete on the price-performance end vs sun. but surely the 7140 is a level above the storvault range.

    @hebdenland - is vtl functionality on the road map for the s7000. I know you have your prime and plus products for doing vtl at a higher price point, but it might be an interesting idea to give the s7000 a vtl personality option.....i've gone a bit cold on the idea of vtl thinking ata based backup is just fine, but it could help to bring vtl down to the small market....any thoughts ?

  28. Thanks to torledo from:

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