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Hardware Thread, Our Head Has Asked Me To Obtain Opinions From Edugeek On Laptops/Notebooks Etc. in Technical; Originally Posted by seawolf Weakest in comparison to what? My iPad mini (Gen 1) and iPad Air both do better ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Weakest in comparison to what? My iPad mini (Gen 1) and iPad Air both do better with keeping a WiFi signal than my Surface RT. And all three are much better than Chromebooks. The iPad Air in particular works very well and should as it has dual antennas and MIMO. The original iPad had weakfish WiFi, but we have around 300 iPads on our network iPad 1 to iPad Air and didn't have to double the number of APs we had. What sort of WiFi solution are you using that required that. Of course if you barely had enough APs to start with and threw a bunch of extra devices into WiFi, then that might explain it. Remember correlation does not equal causation.
    Then you must have an issue with your Surface RT, as i'm sat next to a bunch of iPads and Surface RTs and the Surface RT's have constantly outperformed the iPads in the wireless department. I'd guess thats because they have dual atennas and MIMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Slightly off-topic, but it is worth remembering that Apple is a consumer focused company with little or no interest or asperations into either the business or education sectors. Like wise, many of Microsoft's more recents problems/blunders have come about because they are a business focused company who take their position there for granted and want to muscle in on the higher margin consumer markets...

    I suppose when picking between iOS, OS X, Android, Windows, Chrome, etc - you do have to take a step back and look at the companies providing the product as well and ask the questions. Is this a consumer device? Will it play nice on my network? Will it ever play nice on my network? Can I make it play nice on my network? Is this the right device for us? I'm sure different schools will have different priorities/answers for any given device.
    I think your way off to suggest Apple has no interest in the Education market. It's probably the only reason why the iPad2 is still around. There also actively pushing them into education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    I think your way off to suggest Apple has no interest in the Education market. It's probably the only reason why the iPad2 is still around. There also actively pushing them into education.
    I call it lip service. I don't believe for one instance Apple have serious designs on the market. The last product they had primarily for education was the eMac, discontinued in 2006. They obviously want what they can get out of the education sector, but they are a consumer driven company first and foremost.

    My comment was more to highlight the idea that Apple won't make education based design decisions to the detriment of consumer based design decisions. So if you're buying Apple for school use you need to take their company philosophy into account. Not necerssarily a bad thing or a reason against iPads. I'm just not holding my breath for GPO-like levels of control over the devices outside of third party MDM's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I call it lip service. I don't believe for one instance Apple have serious designs on the market. The last product they had primarily for education was the eMac, discontinued in 2006. They obviously want what they can get out of the education sector, but they are a consumer driven company first and foremost.

    My comment was more to highlight the idea that Apple won't make education based design decisions to the detriment of consumer based design decisions. So if you're buying Apple for school use you need to take their company philosophy into account. Not necerssarily a bad thing or a reason against iPads. I'm just not holding my breath for GPO-like levels of control over the devices outside of third party MDM's.
    ah i see what your saying, yeah i agree first and foremost they will go after the consumer market.

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    Our Head Has Asked Me To Obtain Opinions From Edugeek On Laptops/Notebooks Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by nathan View Post
    Then you must have an issue with your Surface RT, as i'm sat next to a bunch of iPads and Surface RTs and the Surface RT's have constantly outperformed the iPads in the wireless department. I'd guess thats because they have dual atennas and MIMO.
    Well, I only have one if them, but it will lose the WiFi signal for an unknown reason or takes a long time to reconnect after going off the network. Dual antennas and MIMO be darned it isn't working as well with our Ruckus WiFi as the iPads. Like I said though, the Chromebooks are much worse in this regard.
    Last edited by seawolf; 6th March 2014 at 10:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I call it lip service. I don't believe for one instance Apple have serious designs on the market. The last product they had primarily for education was the eMac, discontinued in 2006. They obviously want what they can get out of the education sector, but they are a consumer driven company first and foremost.

    My comment was more to highlight the idea that Apple won't make education based design decisions to the detriment of consumer based design decisions. So if you're buying Apple for school use you need to take their company philosophy into account. Not necerssarily a bad thing or a reason against iPads. I'm just not holding my breath for GPO-like levels of control over the devices outside of third party MDM's.
    So, do you think that Microsoft's primary concern is Education? Was it the consumer-focused Windows 8 release or the even more consumer-focused Surface tablets and the per-user licensing of the Windows Store that convinced you of that?

    http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...on-environment

    Sorry if I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but do you REALLY think that MS, Google, Apple or any other major IT company has the Education market as a real consideration when formulating business plans and product releases? Microsoft has traditionally had a more business focus, which translated well for education in many cases, but with the proliferation of "consumer" tech in business, MS has been trying with all it's might to win over the consumer (even considering offering Windows 8.1 for "free").

    In many ways, by making OSX and iOS free as well as a load of iWork and iLife apps free for both OSX and iOS, as well as providing a VPP program (although still imperfect for sure, grrr), and creating the free iBooks Author app - Apple is trying harder in the Edu market than MS in recent years. In fact, Steve Jobs targeted the Education market even to his detriment both with Apple (early years) and with NextStep (take a look who their target market was - Universities).

    No, I don't think ANY of the major IT companies really care that much about us in education. We just get the scraps from the table of the business and consumer markets...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    So, do you think that Microsoft's primary concern is Education?
    Hell no, but then I'm not sure Microsoft know what their primary concern is/should be any more! Traditionally MS are a software supplier of operating systems and productivity applications for small-medium businesses. This is where they excel and gain most of thier revenue. Which makes you wonder what they were smoking when they dreamed up Windows 8 (something Apple and Google passed their way, that's for sure).

    From an education point of view, our needs more closely align with that of small-medium businesses than that of regular consumers. And, to Microsofts credit, they recognise that and actively market their products in a way that is appelling to this sectors (EES anyone?).

    No, I don't think ANY of the major IT companies really care that much about us in education. We just get the scraps from the table of the business and consumer markets...
    Makes our jobs all the more interesting, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    Well, I only have one if them, but it will lose the WiFi signal for an unknown reason or takes a long time to reconnect after going off the network. Dual antennas and MIMO be darned it isn't working as well with our Ruckus WiFi as the iPads. Like I said though, the Chromebooks are much worse in this regard.
    I'd be looking at a fault with the RT also, they are really good wireless wise. Also the Ruckus gear is actually heavily tweaked to handle the issues with the iOS wifi stack and the little glitches that make iOS devices require more WAPs than other devices because of their questionable decisions wireless wise as they are designed for small home networks.

    This came from Ruckus themselves at some of their training with one of the engineers who loves Apple stuff massively but told us that a large amount of extra effort was made to make iOS behave with the Ruckus system. So the Ruckus gear itself may be covering up for the ipads where as any issues with the RT are unlikely to be catered for yet.

    They do have better antenna than some of the dirt cheap android stuff though and most of the chromebooks I have looked at are made from bargin bin components that are not spectacular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    I'd be looking at a fault with the RT also, they are really good wireless wise. Also the Ruckus gear is actually heavily tweaked to handle the issues with the iOS wifi stack and the little glitches that make iOS devices require more WAPs than other devices because of their questionable decisions wireless wise as they are designed for small home networks.

    This came from Ruckus themselves at some of their training with one of the engineers who loves Apple stuff massively but told us that a large amount of extra effort was made to make iOS behave with the Ruckus system. So the Ruckus gear itself may be covering up for the ipads where as any issues with the RT are unlikely to be catered for yet.

    They do have better antenna than some of the dirt cheap android stuff though and most of the chromebooks I have looked at are made from bargin bin components that are not spectacular.
    I suspect the Ruckus engineer was referring to band steering, which isn't really an iOS specific feature, but helps non-MIMO clients in particular, which was pretty much all tablets until recently.

    A lot of this about the iPad WiFi is myth or was related to the original iPad. The original iPad 1 did have a pretty low transmit power to minimise battery drain and this did cause performance to suffer. Of course, every other tablet that appeared after the iPad either fared worse in this department or had absolutely horrible battery life. It's a fact of life that compromise is required in ultra-portable devices, although those compromises are becoming smaller with every technological leap.

    http://www.informationweek.com/netwo.../d-id/1107279?

    With the later iPads though, this improved dramatically (even the iPad 2 is much better than then1), and the iPad Air is nearly as good as many laptops and better than some in the 5Ghz band.

    http://blogs.aerohive.com/blog/the-w...transmit-power

    p.s. Edugeek, you really need to fix this new App, it's way too crash happy. Had to write this twice

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    We had this debate last year, and ended up buying a mixture of iPads and Chromebooks. We also have a Windows 7 ict suite, so a full range of technologies mixed together.

    It works very well. We used Google Docs already and that has increased since we got the Chromebooks. The staff and students are now very familiar with sharing documents with each other, and returning work via a shared document.
    The chromebooks rarely cause me any grief beyond a forgotten password.

    It did take us quite a few days to set them up, but I think this was due to something in school blocking them from registering with google. In the end I took them home, registered them all, and brought them back into school and have had no more issues with them at all.
    You need to buy into the management console and then you can set up printers etc relatively easily, although we do more online and less printing than we did.

    The iPads are a pain in the neck, but very popular with staff and students. I've tried Meraki and Lightspeed but we ended up buying a Mac Mini and managing them all using Apple Configurator. That works fine for us, as we only have one trolley full and I can connect the trolley to the Mac. It wouldn't work if you had 100s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    That's funny our systems run Windows Server 2012, filecloud on site cloud storage, 1Gigabit Switches, 5Ghz AC Wireless around the whole school. I didn't know all this was available in 1999, please tell me more.... If he wants to use Apple Configurator (which he needs to supervise devices) he needs a Mac please show me otherwise. Plus the screen, mouse and keyboard then any other software he may want to add such as printing capability through the Mac Mini, Mac Server application, I could continue but don't want to waste my breath.

    Your whole comment is basically invalid, iOS limitations and known bugs to Apple themselves aren't an issue with our brand new network but Apples incapability of allowing the consumer to manage these devices properly.

    Edit: I would be very interested to see how you have your infrastructure setup! I find all you do is brag about how good Mac's are for your school but haven't made much contribution on the exact details on how you manage them. If they work as well as they you say they do stop whining about it on random forums and create a blog on here to let people know how to manage these devices properly. I'm sure there are 100's of people on here that would like to know the golden answer that you apparently have to the majority of people on EduGeek struggling with these devices.
    Yep - I'd like to know please. Just had a rather interesting chat with someone high up that seems to think that just buying 2000 odd iPads and ditching the existing PCs will be the perfect solution for both students and staff.

    What about setup, purchasing and pushing apps, maintenance, security, storage and charging, existing files access, wireless infrastructure upgrades to support them all, accessing existing software that only works on Windows, anything with Flash, printing, upgrading internet pipes etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    ... oh - and why am I just finding out about it after the decision has been made !!!

    HBJB
    Last edited by Heebeejeebee; 26th March 2014 at 02:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    And you complain about other people talking rubbish, you can manage Windows 8 stuff perfectly fine with a 2008 backend, probably even a 2003 one with the RSAT tools. You loose a few of the nice to have features like AD KMS and password policies but they whole point of Windows server is that it is extensible, you don't need to be running the very latest to work with new devices.
    In all fairness, although you can join a Windows 8 Pro/Enterprise client to pretty much any AD domain if you want to use the BYOD features built into Windows 8.1/RT devices such as Workplace Join and Work Folders, you need a server or two which run Windows Server 2012 R2

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    Main issues with 2000 ipads i think would be upgrading wireless and internet connection - reckon you would need at least a 200MB connection.
    I have heard of one school who spent 200K on infrastructure alone.
    Also realistically they would only have a 3 year lifespan as Apple tend to bring out new IOS regularly and don't allow older devices to upgrade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heebeejeebee View Post
    Yep - I'd like to know please. Just had a rather interesting chat with someone high up that seems to think that just buying 2000 odd iPads and ditching the existing PCs will be the perfect solution for both students and staff.

    What about setup, purchasing and pushing apps, maintenance, security, storage and charging, existing files access, wireless infrastructure upgrades to support them all, accessing existing software that only works on Windows, anything with Flash, printing, upgrading internet pipes etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    ... oh - and why am I just finding out about it after the decision has been made !!!

    HBJB
    WHAT! OMG [STARTRANT/]
    What on earth are they thinking, an iPad is not there to replace a computer in anyway shape or form, it's a frigging £500 internet browser for gods sake! What about Sims? Shared Areas? What happens when they're three years old and Apple no longer support them and you have to buy another 2000!! iPads or any tablet for that matter can't replace a computer the only thing that even comes close is a Microsoft Surface Pro but even then staff will winge as it's screen is only 10".

    I've never heard such a ridiculous sentence in all my life, I would not like to be you when it all goes tits up! Have you even tested 1 iPad yet and if so have you made sure MDM is working, WiFi is fast enough... ugh I could go on. What a stupid thing for your management to decide and I'm sorry but I'd be up in arms about this. They've agreed to a huge (wrongly made) decision without even asking for your input, I'd feel like an idiot and be furious!!!!

    [STOPRANT/CALMING]

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    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Just because...

    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    WHAT! OMG [STARTRANT/]
    What on earth are they thinking, an iPad is not there to replace a computer in anyway shape or form,
    Maybe, maybe not...

    it's a frigging £500 internet browser for gods sake!
    Well, that's one use. Won't need to use a computer for that then

    What about Sims?
    Emerge, Learning Gateway

    Shared Areas?
    Google Docs? WebDAV?

    What happens when they're three years old and Apple no longer support them and you have to buy another 2000!!
    They turn into four year old non-Apple supported devices? Staggered replacement programs (buy 650-700 per year instead of 2000 all at once)

    iPads or any tablet for that matter can't replace a computer the only thing that even comes close is a Microsoft Surface Pro
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_...pad%20keyboard


    but even then staff will winge as it's screen is only 10".
    Illuminated Magnifier, Weighted Table Base Model


    School ICT Mangament = Creative solutions for impratical problems

  16. Thanks to tmcd35 from:

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