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Hardware Thread, Extricom wireless solution in Technical; Reading the post I thought I'd comment. Extricom has a unique proposition but don't be fooled. Here are ten reasons ...
  1. #16

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    Extricom Wireless Solution

    Reading the post I thought I'd comment.

    Extricom has a unique proposition but don't be fooled. Here are ten reasons why not to buy:

    1. Each AP's acts as an antennae which gives great coverage area but adding AP's does not increase bandwidth! A 24 port switch with 24 AP's all on one "blanket" at .11b settings gives 11Mb of bandwidth...not good. Share that with 24 students in 24 classrooms then the potential available b/w is into the K/bs range...rubbish

    2. Dual radio AP's do not offer any antennae diversity

    3. Dual or quad radio AP's have one antenna that "does all". The problem is that antennaes, to get max performance, requires different antennae's. Hence the one size fits all has an impact on distance...meaning more AP's to cover the same area which means more cost.

    4. There True Reuse is a myth....ask them to show you this with several different types of laptops with different radio chipsets in. Make sure they are not all Atheros!

    5. Great VoIP demo yes...but they have no QoS on the box. They will say simply but different traffic types on different blankets but what about the same traffic types on the same blanket.

    6. If an AP fails then it will auto re-route...yes but what happens when you have a switch fail! There is no redundancy and therefore this is not an enterprise class sytem.

    7. All cables have to re-route back to each switch...nothing can go over a layer two infrastructure.

    8. Ask how many users can be assoicaied to any one switch. In order to make this system work the AP's are antennaes and the switchis the AP. Last I heard was that it could support 128 users in hardware then after that it ran like a dog in software.

    9. Cost - the solution is not cheap if you need several switches in several locations.

    10. Their channel is not well trained and leads to price differences between competing resellers. If you have an issue they call Extricom in directly and there are ony two engineers in the whole of the UK...STAY AWAY.

    You will hear of this solution working, I argue that to get this working in a high data, mission critical environment is a real challenge. Student use in a school, then yes you can get away with it.

    Check out the other wireless LAN players and stick to well known names.

    Motorola - very good indoor and outdoor solution player, good price
    Cisco - expensive but may fit with your current architecture
    Aruba - security play is good but you pay for it
    Belden/Zyxel - STAY AWAY some of it is Extricom but a different colour

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    Extricom

    Dear (Apparently) in the know.

    Please allow me to retort to your unsubstantiated reasons not to buy Extricom and thus put you in the know.
    under each of your reasons you will find an actual answer to your objections and therefore removing objectionality and implementing actual truth.


    1. Each AP's acts as an antennae which gives great coverage area but adding AP's does not increase bandwidth! A 24 port switch with 24 AP's all on one "blanket" at .11b settings gives 11Mb of bandwidth...not good. Share that with 24 students in 24 classrooms then the potential available b/w is into the K/bs range...rubbish
    ANSWER:- 1.1 increase bandwidth with further AP's...Actually it does not increase B/W, IT INCREASES ACTUAL THROUGHPUT, by reducing contention and utilising uplink diversity (connecting to 3 AP's at all times rather than drowning one AP in a cell based solution such as Cisco, Trapeze, Aruba, Meru for example, and slowing down the network = less bandwidth for all users stuck on 1 AP with high contention instead of having a choice of 3 AP's... therefore less network traffic= higher throughput)
    also the extricom "blanket" removes edge users which is consistently found in cell based wireless. again Extricom providing greater bandwidth and throughput to each client rather than the closest to the cell based AP.
    1.2 11b legacy clients... this is one of the main advantages in the Extricom solution. you can seperate legacy users onto another channel blanket as Extricom provides either X2 or X4 blankets from the same number of access points as a cell based solution.(cisco etc) therefore allowing 802.11g clients (and now N) to retain their 54Mbps status... ultimately you will know that 802.11b clients will haver this affect on every wireless network, but with Cisco, Trapeze, Meru, you cannot seperate them, therefore ending up with (as you say) "rubbish connectivity"
    we have had a test where 40 students all connnected with their personal laptop profiles (inc antivirus background programmes) in 3.5 minutes. try and achieve that with another wireless network...!!!

    2. Dual radio AP's do not offer any antennae diversity
    ANSWER:- they dont need to because you utilise further APs as your diversity (actually increasing the effect by utilising X3 APs rather than X2 diversity antennas on X1 AP. (as you agree, the AP's in the Extricom solution act as antennas)

    3. Dual or quad radio AP's have one antenna that "does all". The problem is that antennaes, to get max performance, requires different antennae's. Hence the one size fits all has an impact on distance...meaning more AP's to cover the same area which means more cost.
    ANSWER:- Any Access Point (internal with integrated antenna's) have a 2.2dBi antenna, same as Extricom. also please refer to answer2 to further substantiate antenna connectivity etc.

    4. There True Reuse is a myth....ask them to show you this with several different types of laptops with different radio chipsets in. Make sure they are not all Atheros!
    ANSWER:- True re-use works. hoewever can only be utilised on X1 blanket so work out which 54mbps network "blanket" (from your choice of X4 = 216Mbps instead of 54Mbps) is going to be most utilised, then switch on true re-use and watch the actual throuput increase. NOT MYTH, FACT.. Although you do have to know how to configure correctly. Again different chipsets on any wireless network creates detriment, not just the Extricom soution, but again UPLINK DIVERSITY = faster log on times and better throughput.

    5. Great VoIP demo yes...but they have no QoS on the box. They will say simply but different traffic types on different blankets but what about the same traffic types on the same blanket.
    ANSWER:- thats the point of seperate blankets, rather than proportion a part of your 54Mbps (standard network) bandwidth via VLAN, (IE 8Mbps VLAN VoIP, 46Mbps data) simply change blanket therefore not reducing connectivity for all other no QoS users, whilst still providing better QoS for the VoIP, Video clients. a much wiser and better suggestion than simply splitting what you have got. lkets face it, everyone on wireless wants more bandwidth, not less.

    6. If an AP fails then it will auto re-route...yes but what happens when you have a switch fail! There is no redundancy and therefore this is not an enterprise class sytem.
    ANSWER:- Thats why you have "Value Added" companies such as ourselves. we provide Next Business Day (NBD) engineer on site with NBD switch swap maintenance inclusive.
    Can you tell me what happens when your Cisco WLAN controller fails ???
    does this mean that Cisco cant provide an enterprise class system ???

    7. All cables have to re-route back to each switch...nothing can go over a layer two infrastructure.
    ANSWER:- this is no issue whatsoever. thats why fibre (industry standard) was invented. use to route multiple Extricom switches together. Also Extricom have provided a self powering inline Power over Ethernet repeater. thus increasing the standard PoE distance capabilities from 100metres to 200 metres. (Switch to AP)

    8. Ask how many users can be assoicaied to any one switch. In order to make this system work the AP's are antennaes and the switchis the AP. Last I heard was that it could support 128 users in hardware then after that it ran like a dog in software.
    ANSWER:- 2007 possible associations can be held on the switch.
    in a much earlier firmware version, Extricom did separate clients via hardware, then with higher contention pass them off to software. this was solely for encryption and not in any way, sha[e or form related to contention/bandwidth resolves/problems. HOWEVER the firmware has changed greatly since then and this is no longer the case with Extricoms solution.

    9. Cost - the solution is not cheap if you need several switches in several locations.
    ANSWER:- True, you get what you pay for.
    Remember your not buying 3com, NetGear, Zyxel etc.
    you dont get a Jaguar XF for CitroenC3 prices...
    Trapeze, Aruba, Cisco, Extricom = same price bracket.

    10. Their channel is not well trained and leads to price differences between competing resellers. If you have an issue they call Extricom in directly and there are ony two engineers in the whole of the UK...STAY AWAY.
    ANSWER:- Completely incorrect. We have (WirelesIT) 11 trained Extricom engineers and we are a Disti. I have numerous reseller accounts whom also have large engineering resource (Extricom trained). we dont need to back everything off to the manufacturer as our (and our resellers) engineers answer the problems for you (again please refer to answer 6 above regarding maintenance contracts. Also i would like to point out that there is competition in any sales market. every product you buy (even between tomatoes and potatoes in Tesco or ASDA) is subject to price competition.
    this creates opportunities for businesses to succeed and also for well established companies to recieve the discount structure that they deserve. ultimately providing the end user (client spending their cash) with choice.!!!

    mission critical environments are the most readily tackled by Extricom over other manufacturers to to its malleability of spreading accross blankets with a possible 216Mbps (across 4 blankets 802.11a,b,g) rather than 54mbps.
    Extricom have now also released their N option. i suggest you check it out.

    you have mentioned to check out the other wireless LAN players and stick to well known names.

    Motorola - very good indoor and outdoor solution player, good price.
    MOTOROLA OWN 20% OF EXTRICOM.
    cisco - expensive but may fit with your current architecture
    CISCO IS OUTDATED AND SUFFERS FROM CELL BASED ISSUES, EDGE USERS, 802.11b BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE ISSUES WHICH CANNOT BE CLIENT SEPERATED LIKE EXTRICOM CAN ETC ETC ETC.
    Aruba - security play is good but you pay for it
    YEH, WILL COST YOU APPROX 4 TIMES MORE THAN EXTRICOM (TRUST ME THIS IS MY JOB)

    Belden/Zyxel - STAY AWAY some of it is Extricom but a different colour
    ***************
    I AGREE, BUT NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE RE-BADGED EXTRICOMS TECHNOLOGY, JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE WHO THEY ARE. CHEAP AND ENTRY LEVEL TECHNOLOGY..

    in the know... i really hope that this helps resolve your objections towards the Extricom proposition and that i have brought a little more understanding to your idea of how Extricom WLAN works and its benefits over EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER on the market today.
    there is not one other manufacturer that can provide a true single channel blanket (with multiple blankets available) whilst removing the "cell based" architecture for a non disassociate-reassociate client experience.


    please feel free to contact me should i be able to help resolve any more objections, answer any questions or generally just be of wireless assistance.

    kindest regards
    Dean.

  3. #18
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    So for 5, the answer would be, no it doesn't have QoS then?

    For 6, if my Procurve controller fails, the redundant backup takes over (not that I've got one yet). NBD replacement isn't quite the same, especially as I never get anything NBD here.

    7 IS an issue, certainly in the building I'm in. I think it was the first thing that put me off most of the other wireless systems.

  4. #19

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    Extricom

    Q5 Yes it has a better non program compicated version of QoS.. = A completely dedicated blanket (entire network.) what better version of QoS can you get ??? ps you can also VLAN the blanket should you wish. same as you would VLAN any other network.
    why would you want to divide an already strained wireless network to add QoS when you can simply seperate high packet (or real time) users to their own individual network (1 blanket QoS, 1 Blanket standard date, 2 blankets left for other purposes. etc etc)

    Q6 add a redundant switch!
    Also i suggest that you should choose a supplier that can offer contractual NBD like we (and most of our resellers) do.
    each manufacturer will have USP's. (uniique selling points) redundant back up is HP's etc, not a facility which Extricom currently provide.
    however if this is a hugely important issue, carry a spare switch.

    Q7. if you network is installed by a professional network service provider (such as ourselves via our resellers, or by certain resellers too) then this is not an issue. roof cavities, trunking, risers, daedo trunks, etc etc etc.
    i am presuming you already have a structured cable infrastructure ??? therfore this was installed at some point, and the Extricom WLAN would be the same... you would not even notice (aesthetically) that the solution had been installed when implemented by a quality installer.

    is there a particular reason why you feel adding more cable is an issue whilst being hidden, and also where are you in the UK that you cant receive NBD assistance tin this day and age. ???

    kind regards
    Dean

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    extricom

    oh and PS, YES IT DOES HAVE QoS IEE 802.11e

    so you can have the best of both worlds

    kind regards
    Dean

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by WirelessITDean View Post
    Q5 Yes it has a better non program compicated version of QoS.. = A completely dedicated blanket (entire network.) what better version of QoS can you get ??? ps you can also VLAN the blanket should you wish. same as you would VLAN any other network.
    why would you want to divide an already strained wireless network to add QoS when you can simply seperate high packet (or real time) users to their own individual network (1 blanket QoS, 1 Blanket standard date, 2 blankets left for other purposes. etc etc)

    Q6 add a redundant switch!
    Also i suggest that you should choose a supplier that can offer contractual NBD like we (and most of our resellers) do.
    each manufacturer will have USP's. (uniique selling points) redundant back up is HP's etc, not a facility which Extricom currently provide.
    however if this is a hugely important issue, carry a spare switch.

    Q7. if you network is installed by a professional network service provider (such as ourselves via our resellers, or by certain resellers too) then this is not an issue. roof cavities, trunking, risers, daedo trunks, etc etc etc.
    i am presuming you already have a structured cable infrastructure ??? therfore this was installed at some point, and the Extricom WLAN would be the same... you would not even notice (aesthetically) that the solution had been installed when implemented by a quality installer.

    is there a particular reason why you feel adding more cable is an issue whilst being hidden, and also where are you in the UK that you cant receive NBD assistance tin this day and age. ???

    kind regards
    Dean
    7 is an issue no matter what, it has been hell to get the fixed network out to parts of the building even when running a single fibre. Floors are all concrete, ceilings are concrete.

    As I've already spent so much getting my normal network to every part of the building it wouldn't make much sense not to use this existing infrastructure to attach wireless points.

    I wouldn't pick any solution that needed points wired to a central switch so it's not an Extricom failing as such, just a design decision that rules it out. So while it may not be an issue usually this is not the case for all sites.

    And while many people will offer NDB replacement items to the Isle of Wight many will not actually turn up until the day after.

  7. #22

    CPLTD's Avatar
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    lol Incidentley Guy's Cableserve and WirelessITDean are working from the same company after I just had a chat with there office in Cheshire, hmmm funny that hey

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    Extricom

    Dear CPLTD
    as (if you had read my notices) you will be aware, i have been simply answering questions regarding the Extricom solution.
    i am sure that you are also aware of the chain involved in IT sales:-
    Vendor
    Distributor
    Reseller
    End User.

    reseller cant buy from Vendor and Distributor cant sell to end user.
    therefore i am not looking for free advertisement as quite honestly we dont need it. !

    my posts have been to inform other Extricdom interested parties on the true capabilities of this vendors solution and i do this because i have a great understanding of the technology and have been working with Extricom for over 2 years.

    my details are online for anyone to pose questions to me and contact me for this purpose.
    however should i be asked to recommend a reseller for any educational establishment... i could with ease as i currently manage numerous installation accredited Extricom premier partners.

    now... to answer the user in the isle ... i understand your issues.

    kind regards
    dean

  9. #24

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Guys ... no supplier wars please. A PM will be off to the relevant people shortly. In the meanwhile keep discussions to the benefits or issues with the technology, not with how good a supplier you are.

  10. #25


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    I remember back in my day we used cup and string to communicate, none of this wireless malarky!

  11. #26

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    String? pah!

    We used to take the hairs off our chest and weave them together and the cups were actually the empty schools of year 10 students ...

    Cups and strings .. luxury!

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    Extricom

    CPLTD.

    please allow me to rest your mind at ease and stop this futile keyboard war.

    WirelessIt are an Extricom Distributor
    Cableserve (not associated) are a WirelessIT customer whom buy Extricom from WirelessIT.

    yes we are both located in cheshire, however we are not the same company at all.

    i must admint that i am dissapointed that you have shown malice towards my informative help (with no advertising or spam whatsoever) and for some reason would try to discredit me as a Distributo of Extricom.
    i dont understand your point.
    WirelessIt are not your competition, we supply companies like you..
    you are a reseller and accredited partner for Extricom.
    we are a distributor which sells to accredited resellers.

    i hope that this will end your grievance, which i still fail to understand.
    your sincerely
    dean

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    Extricom

    thanks GrumbleDook for the light hearted addition.
    hopefully we can get back to chatting and being helpful.

    however, how did you find the contention issue with the chesthair network ???
    i have to admit that your solution would definately resolve the external link line of sight issues anyway that some wirleess technology suffers from .

    stay happy

    dean

  14. #29

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Those that have met me will understand that I tend to use hair from my head (why I have so little) but Dos Box uses chest hair and still has a flowing mane ...

    Just don't ask what Russdev, Ric_ or ZeroHour use ... Just do a search on the site for Jenny the Horse!!!!

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    CPLTD's Avatar
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    It was great speaking with your earlier Dean and I'm glad we both agree how some variables may have given the impression that Wireless IT and Cableserve look to be the same company , I can confirm from our conversation that this is not the case and please accept my appologies for tainting you with the brush of spam that Cableserv was painting with, lol



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