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Hardware Thread, nas storage in Technical; The Qnaps are rock solid. Really good machines. Saying that they throw a wobbly if you fill them 100% up, ...
  1. #46
    zag
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    The Qnaps are rock solid. Really good machines.

    Saying that they throw a wobbly if you fill them 100% up, but that's the only problem I've ever had.

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    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Can you run perfmon on the storage server? If so then that'll give you some basic read/write figures that you can monitor during peak times.



    How have you found the Qnap under heavy CIFS use? Ours really started to struggle and Qnap suggested we move to iSCSI (which solved the issue, but isn't practical in all scenarios).

    Chris
    We use the iscsi hookup as the dirty substandard Linux underpinnings can't cope with ntfs5 and later versions of windows backup. It is just easier to take the responsibility away from it and have it dealt with by a system that applies the rules of a modern filesystem to any transactions.

  3. Thanks to SYNACK from:

    Duke (1st February 2013)

  4. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mac_shinobi View Post
    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/qnap-ts-869pro-8-bay-sata-3-(6gb-s)-atom-cpu-213ghz-dual-core-1gb-ddr3-2x-usb30-2xesata-2x-gbit-lan-

    What about qnap vs synology ?
    Realistically, I don't think an Atom CPU is up to serving 1000+ users as a backup target maybe.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    We use the iscsi hookup as the dirty substandard Linux underpinnings can't cope with ntfs5 and later versions of windows backup. It is just easier to take the responsibility away from it and have it dealt with by a system that applies the rules of a modern filesystem to any transactions.
    Glad I'm not the only one then. If you can just use the QNAP as 'dumb block-level' storage then it's not too bad, but I wouldn't make ours (last generation - not sure if the latest ones are any better) a user-facing device if I was supporting hundreds of users.

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    looks like the network never really peaked above 40%-50% but averaged nowhere near so should be quite safe. Investing in the extra capacity is all well and good but im probably going to need to rethink backing up this data too.. Until recently we were able to get away with full backups daily however with the massive ammount of extra space we will have available i can afford to be much more lenient with quotas. I was considering repurposing the existing nas as a backup server but with only 2tb useable space i wont be able to make a full backup to it, only dailies and incremental.. Whats the best way around that? Usually when i bump up the storage i bump up my backup drive too and lto6 should cater to that but is it really necessary?

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    Duke's Avatar
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    You don't really want to be doing daily full backups anyway, unless you're dealing with really small pools of data. Most people do a weekly full and daily differentials - would that work for you?

    How much space do you need (to actually use) on your new storage if/when you buy it, and how much space does your old (current) NAS have if you wipe it? (is that an option once you've moved data to the new storage?)

    EDIT: It'd also be useful to have an idea of what your daily data change is like too, if you know it.

    Chris
    Last edited by Duke; 6th February 2013 at 03:44 PM.

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    We currently perform our daily backup (working set-changed today) which average between 8/20gb of which 4gb is sims database and weekly backups (working set - changed in last x days) which range between 80/120gb.

    We will need around 1.6tb on our new storage box but this will climb much higher as i will be able to relax our quotas a lot. Our existing box will have 1.8tb free when its been wiped. When you say daily data change can you explain to me a little more what you mean?

    Thanks
    James

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    It sounds like your 'working set' description may be what I'm referring to with full and differential backups. When I say daily data change, I mean that if you did a full backup at 6PM one day, then you wanted to backup only the new/changed data at 6PM the next day, how much data would that normally be?

    I'm proposing that you do the following:

    Weekly full backup, probably started on a Friday evening to finish before Monday morning (I'm assuming you don't have things going on in the weekends). This full backup would grab all the files/data that are important to you.
    Daily differential backup from Mon-Thurs. This will start on Monday evening, and grab all the files that are new/changed since the Friday evening full backup took place. Then Tues, weds, Thurs it will do the same thing.

    (You could do incremental backups each day; this would mean that Monday would grab the changes since Friday, Tuesday would grab the changes since Monday, Wednesday would grab the changes since Tuesday, etc. This would take up less space as you're only grabbing the changes since the last backup of any kind, rather than the changes since the last full backup, but it's more fiddly to manage in my experience and means doing a restore takes longer)

    Lets aim on the high side then, if I've understood your figures right:

    Friday/weekend full backup: 120GB
    Monday backup: 20GB
    Tuesday backup: 40GB
    Wednesday backup: 60GB
    Thursday backup: 80GB
    TOTAL for the week: 320GB

    1.8TB / 320GB = 5.6

    In very, very, very rough theory, you could keep 5 weeks of backups on there. In reality, you might only keep the differentials for 2 weeks and the fulls for 5 weeks.

    Am I making any sense?
    Chris

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    jjohnsoncantell (22nd February 2013)

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    I see what you are saying Chris, sounds like the only difference between your plan and mine is the full backup at the end of each week. In an ideal world i would love to do that but for us a full backup (by which I assume you mean everything, all user data and shared area data) currently stands well over 1tb which would swallow half our storage in one go. We dont dedupe or anything like that either As an example with our current set up our last weeks figures were 18gb,8gb,8gb,13gb,112gb.

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    Duke's Avatar
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    Ah okay, so we're actually looking at the following?

    Weekend full backup: 1TB+
    Monday backup: 18GB
    Tuesday backup: 26GB
    Wednesday backup: 34GB
    Thursday backup: 47GB
    Friday backup: 159GB
    TOTAL for the week: Over 1.2TB

    I can see how that would cause you problems (if it makes you feel any better, a full backup at the job i finished last week was over 4TB)

    So, we need more backup storage. Can you remind me what/how many disks are currently in the box? How would you feel about putting in bigger ones, if it's possible?

    Failing that, do you have any budget to buy something like a big, dumb, cheap QNAP and hang it off the back off this box via iSCSI for extra storage? (or use as iSCSI by itself if it had enough storage on its own)

    Cheers,
    Chris
    Last edited by Duke; 7th February 2013 at 10:22 AM. Reason: mis-spelled my own name, bad times...

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    jjohnsoncantell (22nd February 2013)

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    Hi Chris,

    Sorry it took so long to reply. Had a week off and promised myself i would avoid all work and actually have a break. Im reluctant to spend any more on the existing server due to its age so your cheap nas option sounds like the best but just replacing drives on the old server would still be cheaper.. Im still hoping to get some sort of use from our ultrium4 drive but its the restoring data part that takes the time.. I went for the hp storage server in the end for the new nas so now im looking at refining our backup methods.

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    Hmm, I'd price up a cheap SAN/NAS vs buying new drives then as your next step. Do you have a budget in mind? Big, simple storage should be cheap enough these days (cheap as in a couple of Łk)

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    Ive been looking at the qnap as a backup box as you suggested, like a 6/8tb model. The one thing im worried about is that we use backup exec 2010 which uses agents on the server. Im guessing qnap uses a bespoke o/s so how would that work?

  17. #59
    Duke's Avatar
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    Is this just for dumping data to, not backing up data from? If so then you don't need to worry about agents, they're only used for the servers you backup data from. Backup Exec can actually use CIFS (Windows shares) if it can't find an agent, so you technically could back up data from it if you wanted. Generally for a SAN/NAS, you'd look for one that has NDMP support, which Backup Exec can use even if it doesn't know the OS.

    Anyway, back on track. You could either make a Windows share on the QNAP and point Backup Exec directly to it as a remote B2D folder, or (and I strongly recommend this one!) create an iSCSI LUN and mount it on the Backup Exec server. Backup Exec will then see this as a local hard drive and you'll be able to create a B2D folder on it.

    Chris

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    jjohnsoncantell (22nd February 2013)

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    Ah I understand, thanks for clearing that up Yep its just for backing up to.. Ive never used iscsi before but from what i know i can use it across the network cant i? I would prefer to be able to locate this backup box somewhere in another block for safety purposes.

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