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General EduGeek News/Announcements Thread, Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted in EduGeek Stuff; Further to my NAACE post here is a draft document that discusses managed services it will be released as an ...
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    russdev's Avatar
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    Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    Further to my NAACE post here is a draft document that discusses managed services it will be released as an official edugeek.net release and sent to naace.

    In it we have tried to get views of all of you across so it includes good, bad and the ugly.

    If we could have comments areas would like to see improved, changed etc

    Regards

    Russell
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted-edugeek.net_positional_statement_managed_services_draft.pdf  

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    i dont know how long with the thread on bsf and this thread not one reply come guys and girls at least give me something to work with even if it is that is spot on or that is way of the mark

    Russ

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    alan-d's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    Hang on - only just seen this post :P

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    lol


    Russ

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    alan-d's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    PM'd you :P

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    I've enclosed a document entitled 'partnerships, privatisation and the public interest'
    It was written by Adelaide university and looks at how PPP was implemented in Britain - as a way for Australia *not* to do it.
    It's not specific to schools IT but may give you some Ideas about potential problems that should be raised.

    From TFA:

    It beggars belief to imagine that large-scale efficiencies can be found by
    privatising social infrastructure such as schools and hospitals. The most likely
    prospect is that the services will decline. In the UK, where private financing
    has been operating for some years now, the diversion of funds to cover the
    additional costs for private hospital development has led to a 30 per cent
    reduction in bed capacity and a 20 per cent reduction in hospital staff.52 An
    extensive study of the record was also undertaken last year by Tony Blair's
    favourite think-tank, the Institute of Public Policy Research. Although heavily
    criticised for being a deeply interested attempt to 'talk out' the policy's
    opponents, the report nevertheless found that the British results showed no
    significant efficiency gains in hospitals and schools.53
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted-partnerships-privatisation-public-interest.pdf  

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    Hi Russ
    from what iv'e read so far it seems that we are in the proverbial rock and a hard place again but this seems to be common place. What it seems and excuse me if i am wrong (you can tell me if i am) to be saying is that we as a group of very intelligent often misconceived geeks (to term the phrase) are being bullied by the very educational system that we so verily give bloody good service to for the sake of finance. Yet the same educational system finances some of the worst cock ups i have ever seen in regards to wastage of money, because some of the teachers themselves are on extortionate rates of pay for very little effort in teaching and learning framework. i know you seem to think that i have it in for the teaching professionals but honestly i don't, only the ones who in my eyes and probably in a lot of other's eye's are rather incompetent at what they are supposed to be trained in and that is teaching the children. I am sorry if this offends anyone especially good teachers but i feel it has to be said for our, as a group of specialists sake.

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    I think through you are getting issues mixed up bossman while issue of pay and such are important.

    We have to understand that in certain places managed service is a benefit (primary schools etc) and to deny that is naive. So what in summary saying is that while managed service can work they have to be implemented in right way so that teaching and learning and ict in schools does not suffer?

    For us to come out and say that managed services are bad and should be scrapped wont do any good a in current political climate and also it would be picked apart where managed services can work.

    So if we say that our main concern is that it is any managed services are implemented right and with full school consultant then very may have positive impact but they must be done in correct way.

    Should say this document is going to be released and also sent to naace who are writing similar kind of document and that will go to likes of dfes, becta and more etc

    As for ‘having it in’ for teachers no I do think through no matter how many times you “I am sorry if this offends anyone especially good teachers” you are still making sweeping statements. When there is a lot of good teachers out there just like lot of good cleaners, network managers, lsa’s and just as equal as there is bad ones.

    While not going to take this thread into pay debate teachers got pay deal they currently have aka national agreement due to a lot of fight and that has made it easier for us to argue for national payscale (this is being worked on dfes have got a working party for this support staff and this has been tabled so watch this space.)

    I imho think you need to step back and stop looking at teachers as they have it all and we don’t but start to work as one to benefit of everybody but that imho as to say.

    Anyway EduGeek admins don’t mind debate it makes world go around what we have to make sure we don’t go into is constant teacher bashing there are plenty for forums for that. EduGeek has been here to support, promote and lead ICT support in education.

    @ CyberNerd

    Nice document will have proper look at it late

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    What possible benefits do these managed services have to your average secondary school? Will the "existing" IT support staff (Network Manager, Technicians) have less control over the network? All the current documents around this seem to say "yes" to this question.

    There are many issues to consider, some of which include physical problems that must be dealt with by on-site personnell and response times of support tickets if on-site personnell have less control over the network (such as restoring files from backup. How long will this take using a managed service? Days? Weeks? Months?).

    I believe there is also the hidden agenda (which will probably be denied), that it is a way of saving money by removing the requirement of an on-site Network Manager, and just have a Technician for changing toners etc.

    These are obviously a bad move as far as customer satisfaction is concerned. But at the end of the day, if it is seen that schools saves money this way, then the people who make the decisions will have their blinkers well and truly on.

    I think we need to know a lot more though; the who, what, where, why, when and hows of it all.

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    alan-d's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    You are automatically assuming that all schools already have a dedicated IT technician or team in place or have funding to do so.

    There are hundreds of schools that rely on local knowledge eg teachers to run the network and don't have funding. BSF could in some circumstances benefit enormously.

    We all know that a technician based locally is ideal but unforyunately we don't live in an ideal world and we have to make decisions that suit individual circumstances.

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    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    What possible benefits do these managed services have to your average secondary school? Will the "existing" IT support staff (Network Manager, Technicians) have less control over the network? All the current documents around this seem to say "yes" to this question.

    There are many issues to consider, some of which include physical problems that must be dealt with by on-site personnell and response times of support tickets if on-site personnell have less control over the network (such as restoring files from backup. How long will this take using a managed service? Days? Weeks? Months?).

    I believe there is also the hidden agenda (which will probably be denied), that it is a way of saving money by removing the requirement of an on-site Network Manager, and just have a Technician for changing toners etc.

    These are obviously a bad move as far as customer satisfaction is concerned. But at the end of the day, if it is seen that schools saves money this way, then the people who make the decisions will have their blinkers well and truly on.

    I think we need to know a lot more though; the who, what, where, why, when and hows of it all.
    hence why we said in document that it is important to for managed services to not just look at bottom line and having on site support brings added benafit.

    Russ

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    Russ i thank you for your candid and thoughtful reply and i must confess sometimes i do get a little carried away with the pay thing. i do want to say though i am not into teacher bashing or any other bashing for that matter. I do agee whole heartidly with what you are saying and fully concurr that in this economic and political climate the educational system is going through we must tread carefully but also we must not allow the powers that be to walk all over us either.

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    What would stop Edugeek from forming a Centralised Managed Service to schools across LEAs from the membership you have already got? Something like South (London, Essex, etcetera) - Edugeek, Midlands (Birmingham, Walsall, Dudley. Sandwell, etcetera) West and East etcetera? With everything set at an academy or a school with decent techie's then dish out support to each school in the area phasing them in a few every 6 months or so? The network is still there between schools at an LEA level and to be honest across the UK so it would seem possible? A few schools already have setup support for several Sister Secondaries and Primary feeders so why not take it up a scale?

    Wes

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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    What would stop Edugeek from forming a Centralised Managed Service to schools across LEAs from the membership you have already got?
    A few million quid - or lack thereof.
    The BSF tenders only allow large companies such as Microsoft, Dell, Sun to bid for contract. Nice idea though

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    wesleyw's Avatar
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    Re: Positional Statement: Managed Services Doc Views Wanted

    If an lea had a school supporting every other school in the borough then I think the Head Teachers would kick up a fuss if it was well run with little problems and the BSF wanted to change every thing?

    Wes

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