An Open Letter to David Cameron’s Parents

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Originally Posted by Theblacksheep

taking a TV from a shop IS no different from filling in an expenses claim for a new TV. No difference, except one you want to shoot, the other you'll vote in.... and wonder why this keep coming around.

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seriously, there is no difference between the two?

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Originally Posted by Theblacksheep

Some people need to stop hiding behind the 'personally offended' line (just because they voted for them) and stop making excuses for thieving politicians, on both sides of the coin.

There's lots of people taking the supposed moral high ground when taking a TV from a shop IS no different from filling in an expenses claim for a new TV.

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That entirely depends on your viewpoint, ethics, philosophy, morals etc etc etc. As always it is not a black and white issue.

I would say smashing up someone's lively hood, torching the placing, laughing about it and running of with goods is far worse than expenses fraud. Note, not expenses fraud is ok, just not as bad. I think parliament and our whole governmental system needs reform. But comparing the expenses scandal to a mass outbreak of civil lawlessness and then trying to use that as some means of justifying it is misguided and minimises the whole problem. We may as well say that the looters are all Robin Hood types, the loveable scamps, lets just let them be.

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Originally Posted by NikTheGeek

Comparing the riots to the past behaviour of politicians is, at best, thoughtless...

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You are right. Those rioters weren't generally in positions of responsibility and holding themselves up as role models, arbiters of social morality and being the ultimate guardians of ethical behaviour for our country. The rioters were just ordinary scum. The legions of politicians who fiddled their expenses, sold access to power to the highest bidders, supported legislation for pay and the promises of lucrative directorships and cozied up to media moguls who see little wrong in using illegal means to get information - not on criminals but people who have merely suffered tragedy; those aren't ordinary scum, they are a very special kind of scum indeed. If I was a rioter I'd be disgusted to be compared to them.

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Originally Posted by TechMonkey

I would say smashing up someone's lively hood, torching the placing, laughing about it and running of with goods is far worse than expenses fraud. Note, not expenses fraud is ok, just not as bad. I think parliament and our whole governmental system needs reform.

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One person smashed up a shop, burnt it and ran away with 5 40" TV?

One MP also didn't claim millions in expenses, hundreds of second homes, gave cash for questions, killed millions in wars, tried to keep expenses private, shot mark duggan and let over 300 people die in police custody in the last 10 years without anyone being charged. Individuals acted for themselves, not one person did everything.

Its not as bad, why? because they are wearing a suit? because they tricked you into voting for them?

Stealing is stealing and people are making excuses for MPs (David Lammy (tottenham) £173,922) by trying to justify a difference.

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Originally Posted by Theblacksheep

One person smashed up a tv, burnt it and ran away with a 40" TV?

One MP also didn't claimed millions in expenses, hundreds of second homes, gave cash for questions, killed millions in wars, tried to keep expenses private, shot mark duggan and let over 300 people die in police custody in the last 10 years without anyone being charged.

Its not as bad, why? because they are wearing a suit? because they tricked you into voting for them?

Stealing is stealing and people are making excuses for MPs (David Lammy (tottenham) £173,922) by trying to justify a difference.

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so an MP shot Mark Duggan? An MP killed millions in wars?
get a grip ffs

by your logic there is no difference between a murderer on death row and a soldier in the army. both have probably killed, i see absolutely no difference. killing is killing, is it better because one is wearing a uniform?

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Originally Posted by MK-2

An MP killed millions in wars?

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You missed the point, it wasn't one (why I put "one MP didn't"), just like one looter cannot do everything on their own.

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Originally Posted by Theblacksheep

just like one looter cannot do everything on their own.

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how does that bear relevance to you comparing them to MPs?
You are saying that expenses fraud is the same as criminal damage, bodily harm, theft and rioting. So does that mean software piracy is as bad as rape?
why not just have one fixed prison term for all crimes, rather than basing each crime on its own?

I think you fully understand the point he's trying to make, stop being facetious.

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Originally Posted by MK-2

how does that bear relevance to you comparing them to MPs?
You are saying that expenses fraud is the same as criminal damage, bodily harm, theft and rioting. So does that mean software piracy is as bad as rape?
why not just have one fixed prison term for all crimes, rather than basing each crime on its own?

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I'm glad you have arrived at treating each crime on its own, because many seem to be lumping all rioters in with 5 different charges. Have a look what they are charged with by the police:

UK riots: the list of magistrate cases and convictions so far | News | guardian.co.uk

* 'Burglary other than dwelling'
* 'Entering Maplins Electronics, in Temple Street, as a trespasser'
* 'Handling stolen goods'
* 'threatening words and behaviour and assaulting a police constable'
* 'Possession of a knife'
* 'Behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace'
* 'Obstructing a PC'
* 'Handling stolen goods'

Apart from extreme cases, are the above charges worse than the charges of MPs 20k or 150k in expenses? or the police taking thousands from Murdochs papers for information?

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Originally Posted by Gibbo

His dads dead.

BBC News - David Cameron's father Ian dies in hospital

To be honest I found this post pretty embarrassing and ignorant - particularly as you didn't know his dad was dead.

I trust you'll be following it up with a similar post about Labour and its past leaders? Miliband hasn't much form (nor will he, he's just a caretaker until Labour is ready for power again), but Blair and Brown have much worthy of mention. But much of your post relates to the many years Labour were in power and had time and opportunity to change any manner of things, but didn't.

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I agree, Blair and Brown were more interested in bankrupting this country (PFI Bills anyone?) to worry about changeing things for the better :)

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Originally Posted by tommej

I think you fully understand the point he's trying to make, stop being facetious.

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Please don't assume to know it all. I am arguing against the point he is trying to make, am I not allowed to do that? Or if I understand the point he is trying to make I must agree with it?

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Originally Posted by Theblacksheep

I'm glad you have arrived at treating each crime on its own, because many seem to be lumping all rioters in with 5 different charges. Have a look what they are charged with by the police:

UK riots: the list of magistrate cases and convictions so far | News | guardian.co.uk

* 'Burglary other than dwelling'
* 'Entering Maplins Electronics, in Temple Street, as a trespasser'
* 'Handling stolen goods'
* 'threatening words and behaviour and assaulting a police constable'
* 'Possession of a knife'
* 'Behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace'
* 'Obstructing a PC'
* 'Handling stolen goods'

Apart from extreme cases, are the above charges worse than the charges of MPs 20k or 150k in expenses? or the police taking thousands from Murdochs papers for information?

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Yes I would say a lot of those charges ARE worse.
Assault, theft, criminal damage, carrying a lethal weapon, burglary.

They all need to be taken into context too.
The old man that died in Ealing, help was hindered because police were being assaulted with missiles while trying to reach him. That man may have died because police couldn't reach him in time due to rioters obstructing them. On the face of it, fraudulently claiming £50k in expenses may seem a bigger deal than obstructing a PC. But in the context of that situation, a mans life was lost because of that obstruction.

I've got to say that if anyone came up to me in the street and mugged me for £50 then that's worse than the same person stealing £50 from my online banking. Yes, both are bad, but in my eyes the mugging is much much worse as it involves an act of violence.

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom – Telegraph Blogs

A Good read.

The point is that neither rioting/looting/arson/criminal damage nor fiddling expenses is acceptable. But those guilty of the latter are in no position to lecture people about the morality of the former.

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Originally Posted by SteveBentley

The point is that neither rioting/looting/arson/criminal damage nor fiddling expenses is acceptable. But those guilty of the latter are in no position to lecture people about the morality of the former.

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Rubbish, as said before fiddling/claiming expenses is a world of difference, for a start it does notreallt impact on peoples lives in the grand scheme of things where as rioting/looting/arson etc has a massve impact on everyones daily lives.