According to prospects.ac.uk, the average (mean) starting pay for graduates in 2007 was £23k, with the median being £22k.
That is not *hugely* above the £20k starting for a teacher, considering the amount of holiday they get, the pension they get, the fact that their conditions are secure whether they move within an LEA or elsewhere in the UK to another LEA etc...
There is not a job in the world that is as well catered for as a teacher.
They get a fair wage for their job. But they should get a yearly pay increase, as should all public sector staff, that is inline with the RPI.
I'm in the same boat, but on even less money. My plan is to stick it out for a few years before moving on armed with experience and the hard-baked cynicism (sp?) of the true IT tech.
Originally Posted by CAM
If the teachers here come whining to me about small pay and sh** hours, i merely point out that i am on less than 9k a year, and have never gone home at the end of my hours!
Funny how quickly they shut up!
Personally i don't see why they are demanding more money, we have 6 pieces of software here that does all of the planning and paperwork for them. Reports are automatically written by the computers so they aren't spending hours on them. There are sooooo many lesson's online for teachers to use.
They only need to sit in front of the class now instead of teaching them!
(this is not teacher bashing it is merely an observation!)
Thats the way to do it (as Punch would say). Simply expecting a high wage with zero real world experience is not how it works. When I started in IT in 2000 my wage was about 13k this rose to 19k within 3 years. Now, with years of experiance under my belt and a job change (promotion) I'm on quite a bit more than that. I don't think the 'I'm newly qualified at job x therefore I should earn tons' washes in the real world.
If they want better salaries then let them have normal holidays like the rest of use full timers. Them when the kids are off they can have their meetings, do planning, have INSET days etc..
Trouble with that plan is they'd get under our feet.
I have to agree with you. I'm not saying all teachers do this but certainly the good ones do and I think that's the majority. We all know annoying staff who rub us up the wrong way but teaching day in day out - 5 days a week is bl**dy hard work and it's a different kind of work than we do. I also know nurses and police etc work hard to and don't get the hols but that's not the point. I don't think the current pay claim is sensible or just but let's not pretend they don't work hard.
Originally Posted by SimpleSi
We want well paid, motivated teachers who care about what they do teaching our kids and for that we need to pay them well.
Perhaps true, but the ones in the south are stuffed. A one-bed flat in Reading will set you back £130k+, so a teacher on £20k would need over 6x their salary for a mortgage. Even one who has been working a good few years and climbed up to £25k is still needing over 5x salary. Very few banks (if any at all) would go near lending that.
Originally Posted by Dos_Box
Its no different in the north, Lancashire has some of the highest property prices in the UK now, its not cheap.
Originally Posted by NickJones
I was just about to say the same - I live in Kendal it's feckin dear here to.
Originally Posted by petectid
Originally Posted by petectid
I don't think it is as easy as you make out and i feel quite annoyed by your remarks.
I have a degree and other professional qualifications far more than some of the teachers at this school but i find i am paid a great deal less per annum for far more work.
If it was that easy for graduates then why are there not more of them entering the IT market I'll tell you why because it would be too much like hard work for them and not enough pay.
Just been having a debate with our Lead ICT Teacher - we came to the conclusion that the problem is everyone fighting for their own little corner.
Teachers feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.
Nurses feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.
Police feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.
Firefighters feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.
EduGeekers/LG workers feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.
As one sector fights for a huge pay rise, all the other sectors start shouting that it's inappropriate, and arguments come out about length of holidays, how much work is truly done, etc.
Cards on the table - I think we can truly all agree that actually, Teachers ARE underpaid. The issue is that it isn't teachers that are specifically underpaid, ALL PUBLIC SECTOR workers are underpaid.
Perhaps if there was more joined-up thinking, we might get somewhere. Instead of all the splinter groups whining separately, how about the group that is underpaid stop infighting and whining and join forces. A group is greater than the sum of it's parts, after all.
If Teachers, us, Police, Firefighters, Nurses, etc. all started fighting for fair pay for public sector workers, we might actually get somewhere. Could you imagine if we all striked on the same day? The Gov would be forced to do something about it.
Our problem isn't that Teachers don't deserve more pay - Our problem is why should only teachers, out of all public sector workers who are underpaid and necessary to public services, be paid what they're worth, when the rest of us aren't.
Maybe we're arguing the wrong fight.
Why isn't it easy, we spend most of our time implementing stuff to make our job easy so much so that some never really have to leave their room. Its not hard work and you probably know that. Just think of all the jobs out there that are much harder than your own, usually physically harder but still harder than running your network.
Originally Posted by bossman
I'll approach this from a teacher's perspective.
Yes, a newly graduated teacher goes to a school and works as an NQT. The first year in a school can be one of the worst and best experiences of your life short of Basic Training. The extremes you have to go to with planning and preparation, with marking, with developing your classroom skills (whether you are talking about classroom management, delivery of lessons, etc) and this is before you are introduced to Parents' Evening ...
For an NQT, or someone in their first full year of teaching you will have the long teachers' holidays ... but on average (independant TDA survey from 2 years ago) they only stop working for 3 1/2 weeks a year ... and that is not moving hours around due to working late on marking etc.
Once you get more experienced and have a bank of resources that you can use the job gets easier ... until the Govt move the goal posts. Rewrites of the curriculum every 3-4 years, moving exam boards, changes in management of schools ... these all mean that you have to change between 30 and 60% of your resources. Some might need a bit of adapting, some might need a complete rewrite.
Eventually you become a good teacher ... you hit a ceiling and you get promoted by taking on 'Leadership' roles ... those lovely TLRs that replaced manglement points. You start teaching less and doing more strategy, admin, paperwork, meetings ... the good teachers become less present in the classroom and the cheapest way of replacing them is with NQTs or GTPs. So, you get a constant stream of heavily worked teachers coming into schools that the unions can then use as ammo for getting better conditions across the board.
The problem with all this? I have no problem with good teachers saying that want better pay and conditions. I have no problem with certain subjects saying that they have horrendous amounts of marking. The problem is that the quality and dedication for teachers varies too much. Too many see it as a job rather than a vocation. It is something they have fallen into rather than choosing to do. The good ones get lots of pressure put on them to do all the work and risk being burnt out. They then leave the profession and you get the next stream of NQTs.
If the teachers getting better pay starts *all* areas of the public sector getting better pay then I have no issue with this. The Teachers are one of the last unions with the wieght behind them to get this ... police can't, nurses can't, firefighters can't ... they may be our last hope.
In one... *deep breath*.. Why is the money raised in taxes going towards:
Originally Posted by Diello
- people sitting on their backsides making a career out of doing nothing, producing nothing and learning nothing
- those same people teaching their offspring that this do nothing career is a keeper and let's all have sprogs at 15 and keep the dream alive.
- people coming into the country with no skills, etc.. (see above) and expecting a free ride (and this is not a blanket, all migrants are spongers rant so don't go there!)
- civil servants, politicians, teachers, etc... who don't do their job properly and who can't be fired because of the plethora of self serving idiots who think that allowing one of their union members to be fired (even when they are blindingly obviously incompetent, lazy or lying about illness!) is bad for everyone (yeah right!)
- politicians who can throw money out the window like it's theirs for expenses without any oversight and yet fight for things like larger class sizes
My sister works in the benefits agency and regularly leaves me open mouthed at the sheer level of fraud, incompetence and idiocy endemic in the benefits system. If we could prosecute just 10% of those scum sucking vermin and and actually find punishments to fit the crime instead of this "put them in a nice little prison where their human rights won't be trampled" oh and then let them out before they go in because of overcrowding b*llox then perhaps the other 90% might learn.
Finally if you really want to turn things around require those self serving power mongering idiots in government to actually have relevant professional experience of the trenches for whatever department they work in. If they are minister for Education they should have taught, been a school governor or relevant professional/doctorate level qualifications in the field of education, not some position handed to them by some numpty in PriceWaterHouse Cooper thanks to a degree in accountancy. Maybe then we'd actually get ideas that worked and not the "70 in a class is fine!" insanity we've heard lately.
.. and breath... Sorry but this "teachers are all lazy b*stards" talk is unfair and just more of the stereotypical tosh that Sun readers just love. Teachers are like people (go figure!), some work hard, some take the proverbial pee and others just should never have been employed to teach in the first place.. The ones we remember the most are the ones that leave us wanting to use them as foundation material in a new house because we seem to love noticing and "rewarding" the negatives, instead of recognising and praising the positives.
Gah... ok feel better now... perhaps I should wipe the froth from around my mouth before I return to my other half :)
Hmm... did I go off topic a liddle.. ? Ah sod it... Sue me... :)
I do think that many teachers work hard and do lots of extra hours - in fact a friend of mine worked out that in term time she did about 55 hours a week, dropping in the holidays, to give her a year average of about 35. So, that is about the same as those who work in industry, isnt it?
EXCEPT that IMHO teachers pay, which is a little lower than other grads perhaps, is compensated for by:
no redundancy worries (well almost always)
no worries about profitability of company
no performance related pay
Standard salary across the country so they always know what they will get.
Good training opportunities
I know a lot of teachers who are married to teachers and who honestly believe that those 'out there' in industry work a standard week and NEVER take work home!! They really think like that and feel hard done by.
As I said, I think many teachers do work hard, and the job is stressful (you can't get up and go for a quick walk to clear your head in the middle of teaching a lesson) BUT all in all they don't do too badly. I would support their pay claim more if they worked out a better way to get rid of bad teachers, as there seem to be quite a lot around.
A good teacher can be an inspiration and change a child's life and outlook, but a bad one can do untold damage