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General Chat Thread, Petition to remove Michael Gove in General; If you work in education, teach or support schools please take a moment to sign this e-petition Immediate removal of ...
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    DocHouse's Avatar
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    Exclamation Petition to remove Michael Gove

    If you work in education, teach or support schools please take a moment to sign this e-petition
    Immediate removal of Micheal Gove as Education Secretary - e-petitions

    Please share with as many friends as you can

    Thanks

    John

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    DaveP's Avatar
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    Hi John,

    Looking at the Terms and Conditions of E-Petitions:

    Link: Terms and conditions - e-petitions

    it states:

    When submitting an e-petition, you may not include the following:

    Confidential, libellous, false or defamatory statements

    • Information which may be protected by an injunction or court order
    • Material which is potentially confidential, commercially sensitive, or which may cause personal distress or loss
    • Names of individuals if they have been accused of a crime or information that may identify them
    • Names of individual officials of public bodies, unless they are part of the senior management of those organisations
    • Names of family members of elected representatives, eg MPs, or officials of public bodies
    As your petition does mention Mr Gove by name [while not suggesting that there is confidential, libellous, false or defamatory statements in your petition] perhaps your petion may not be on the webiste for long?

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
    Hi John,

    Looking at the Terms and Conditions of E-Petitions:

    Link: Terms and conditions - e-petitions

    it states:

    As your petition does mention Mr Gove by name [while not suggesting that there is confidential, libellous, false or defamatory statements in your petition] perhaps your petion may not be on the webiste for long?
    Those rules don't preclude including MPs and Minister's names. They preclude including the names of family members of those people.

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    DocHouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Those rules don't preclude including MPs and Minister's names. They preclude including the names of family members of those people.
    Ditto what he said and it has to be pre approved and checked by the gov bods before it can be posted.

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    DaveP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridpool_John View Post
    Ditto what he said and it has to be pre approved and checked by the gov bods before it can be posted.
    OK. My bad. Having read it again in light of your comments I can see where I misinterpreted the terms.

    I have posted your petition on another forum where I am a member and it is getting positive feedback there.

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    Is there any way you can get the typo in his name corrected? It might make it look a bit more credible.

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    DaveP's Avatar
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    Another petition with the same objective closed on the 15th February this year received 4,308 signatures:

    Link: Remove Michael Gove as Secretary of State for Education - e-petitions

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    Care to explain why people should sign? Genuine question, i don't pay much attention to politics.

    EDIT: more specifically, how it affects me as an IT technician, as all that short description contains is comments towards "the teaching profession"

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    Sadly if he was removed (and our current PM has the distinction of never having given any of his ministers the boot) they would replace him with someone of matching ability.

    Too much interference and change seems to be the by word. The Ministers seem to just go along with the flow and irrespective of political hue blandly accept the changes moronic civil servants dream up. Dream them up they surely must do as no teacher or other responsible person involved in education would see the need to be constantly changing things.

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    I have no liking for politics nor the politicians and civil servants who constantly think they can change the country overnight but unfortunately I am all in favour of professional people other than teachers taking over lessons in schools that are for the students and not just for their own personal gain.

    I know that there are very hard working teachers in the country but unlike any other industry the holidays and the working week are not in line with the rest of the country and this has to be addressed I feel.

    Why should a professional engineer not teach students up to date technology or a chef teach food technology to give but 2 examples, why do we have staff who would not be employable outside of education as they have known nothing else but academic vision and have no grasp of common sense.

    It always astounds me the level of inadequecy and downright lack of common sense that some teachers show, it seems that most teachers are hell bent on climbing up the ladder to more money and less contact time, I have not ever come across any other profession that has 22 hours contact time and a 32 hour contractual working week with 13 weeks holidays a year, even then if a teacher takes on extra responsibilities which most do they then have that time taken away from their contact time and gain extra points and we all know what points make don't we!

    If we want more money we have to justify in a written letter to the governors as to why we deserve a payrise, we have to take on more workload as we cannot dump any of our responsibilities as who else would take them on?

    Its about time teaching in this country was brought up to date as well as the curriculum and get our young people back on the learning track not just remembering and regurgitating of facts when the exams come along.

    Sorry for the rant but it boils my blood when the teachers start crying when their livelihood is threatened, its been a long time in coming but the time's they are a changing for everyone so why not the teachers?

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    Well said Bossman. Trouble is we folk on the ground recognise all you say as fact and agree with the way forward you allude to but the nut none of us seem able to crack is how to get it implemented. You would think that there are sufficient Politicians, Teachers and Civil Servants who are parents who see it as we do and engage in making the system better not the change, change and more change roundabout that has gone on for at least the past 60 years.

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    I'm not a teacher, I was for 6 years and decided that I'm better as a techie and now I'm a network manager and I'm fed up with people putting the education sector down and Mr Gove is the worst example. I've worked in private and public sector and neither is perfect but Gove is making everyone's life in the education sector difficult at the moment not just teachers, my school is one of several in Birmingham that is being forced into academy status and the amount of stress it has placed on everyone this year has been horrendous and I believe enough is enough, someone has to stand up to Gove and his cronies...

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    So, @bossman, you really believe that teaching isnt a skill that needs to be learned then? I COMPLETELY disagree. Yes, someone may be highly qualified in their field but that does NOT mean that they can teach. I dont know about you, but thinking back to my own schooldays, I found some subjects like maths difficult because even though the teachers were trained, they really couldnt teach down to my level and didnt understand why I didnt 'get' the subject. This is likely to happen more and more with people who are not trained to be teachers.
    I dont disagree with a lot of what you say re teachers but it is not related to getting unqualified staff to teach in the classroom. As a parent I would not be happy to think that some bloke (or woman) with a PhD in a subject but no teaching experience is teaching my child.
    PGCE, SKIT and Graduate Teacher schemes teach people how to teach - yes, teachers are often born and not made but they need their skills refining - you only have to have watched that program recently where celebrities went into classrooms to teach to see how difficult it can be.
    Yes, good schools will monitor the people well and really make sure they can do the job but I bet quite a few don't and use the fact that they have such well qualified people to teach as a PR exercise, which can only be a problem for the children.
    There was a very good article which of course I cant find which talked about teaching young children maths and how there are lots of aspects of the learning process (6, I think ) that children can find difficult - and a trained teacher can tease out what it is the child finds difficult, but an untrained teacher may not have the skills to do this.
    I have had some experience of this - for a year my daughter who is a very talented flute player, was taught by someone who was a very good musician but who had no teaching ability whatsoever. My daughter 'lost' a whole year of progression with this woman, as did others, but the school continued to say she was good.
    Teaching has two strands - the subject, and the ability to teach. Unqualified teachers may only have one of these skills
    Last edited by witch; 2nd August 2012 at 08:10 PM.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridpool_John View Post
    I'm not a teacher, I was for 6 years and decided that I'm better as a techie and now I'm a network manager and I'm fed up with people putting the education sector down and Mr Gove is the worst example. I've worked in private and public sector and neither is perfect but Gove is making everyone's life in the education sector difficult at the moment not just teachers, my school is one of several in Birmingham that is being forced into academy status and the amount of stress it has placed on everyone this year has been horrendous and I believe enough is enough, someone has to stand up to Gove and his cronies...
    Thing is, Gove is a mouthpiece of the government. He's basically doing what he's told most of the time. So, yes, he might be useless on his own, but he is being pushed down certain paths by the cabinet and by Cameron and Clegg.

    I do agree that the teaching profession, and school staff in general, are being treated harshly by government. That cartoon that's floating around comparing a child getting bad grades 20 years ago to a child getting bad grades now highlights the issue too.

    Slagging off teachers, and making them out to be the cause of bad grades or bad behaviour is a problem, no doubt about it. It highlights a significant lack of understanding of children and education by government - but that view is being formed by people in the dept of education who have risen through the ranks in schools as teachers and are now sitting in ivory towers pushing pawns around. The entire system is broken.

    However, at the same time, what Bossman says is true - education has had an awfully easy life historically. The career is one of the safest and most rewarded around. We all know this, we all know how rare it is for a teacher to be booted out because they're useless. I can list half a dozen that taught me as a kid who were useless and we only got anywhere because we did other studies too. Education needs a shake-up in this country to get everyone out of the complacency they have fallen into. If that causes stress or anxiety, then I'm afraid, so be it.

    One thing to remember about this discussion around 'unqualified' people going into the classroom is that it has been happening way before now. Also, teaching isn't necessarily a skill that can be taught in the traditional sense. Sure, you can teach concepts and techniques, but most of the best teachers I've ever known are good because they're *experienced*. They've learnt the ropes over the years, they've improved their teaching by doing.

    Who makes a better teacher? Someone who has been on a course for a year but doesn't know the subject matter, or someone who has been involved in that subject for a decade but hasn't been on a year long course?
    Last edited by localzuk; 2nd August 2012 at 08:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    So, @bossman, you really believe that teaching isnt a skill that needs to be learned then?
    I didn't say anything about teaching not being a skill, again there are fully qualified teachers who haven't got a clue and some other professional people who have different backgounds that can teach and all because they know the subject inside out and have on hands experience of what they are teaching unlike a great deal of teachers who have the PGCE etc but don't know the subject well enough or if at all. I have seen times when a science teacher has been learning Maths an hour before actually teaching a Maths lesson to GCSE students (I was actually there when it happened and this went on for a year).

    I COMPLETELY disagree.
    You are entitled to your opinion @witch

    Yes, someone may be highly qualified in their field but that does NOT mean that they can teach. I dont know about you, but thinking back to my own schooldays, I found some subjects like maths difficult because even though the teachers were trained, they really couldnt teach down to my level and didnt understand why I didnt 'get' the subject. This is likely to happen more and more with people who are not trained to be teachers.
    I totally disagree with you as someone who is highly qualified and has the hands on experience is in a far better position than some young fresh out of teacher training to teach students about the subject and this also goes for the older teaching staff who are really hanging on by the skin of their teeth as the school cannot easily get rid of them due to the engineered contracts and strong unions.

    I dont disagree with a lot of what you say re teachers but it is not related to getting unqualified staff to teach in the classroom.
    Thank you for agreeing in part and I do understand where you are coming from but I do feel that teachers are now on a downward spiral on the road to nowhere as parents and other private workforces are baffled as to why the working practises of teachers doesn't fall into the same working practises of everybody else in the country. Apart from college and university lecturers that also fall into the same bracket as teachers as they too have all the benefits of huge holiday's and huge pay awards for very little work albeit death by powerpoint lectures. This hasn't changed since I was at university as my son has pointed out so vigorously in his statement "Dad I could learn in 6 weeks what it takes some lecturers all year to regurtitate through useless powerpoints which they already have on the university VLE".


    As a parent I would not be happy to think that some bloke (or woman) with a PhD in a subject but no teaching experience is teaching my child.
    PGCE, SKIT and Graduate Teacher schemes teach people how to teach - yes, teachers are often born and not made but they need their skills refining - you only have to have watched that program recently where celebrities went into classrooms to teach to see how difficult it can be.
    Yes, good schools will monitor the people well and really make sure they can do the job but I bet quite a few don't and use the fact that they have such well qualified people to teach as a PR exercise, which can only be a problem for the children.
    There was a very good article which of course I cant find which talked about teaching young children maths and how there are lots of aspects of the learning process (6, I think ) that children can find difficult - and a trained teacher can tease out what it is the child finds difficult, but an untrained teacher may not have the skills to do this.
    I have had some experience of this - for a year my daughter who is a very talented flute player, was taught by someone who was a very good musician but who had no teaching ability whatsoever. My daughter 'lost' a whole year of progression with this woman, as did others, but the school continued to say she was good.
    Teaching has two strands - the subject, and the ability to teach. Unqualified teachers may only have one of these skills
    I wonder if Socrates had a teaching degree?

    Teaching in a classroom is getting so outdated and I feel it is about time that students learnt for themselves using their own experiences in most cases, my son didn't get taught how to play the guitar, base guitar, rythm guitar, drums and keyboard, yet within a year he was playing in 2 bands and writing his own songs and music without any formal training whatsoever. He also taught himself certain parts of hia accountancy degree by just reading the books and researching online. Young people today learn so much differently than we did all those years ago. By the time a student has been through school, college and then university the skills they have learnt are out of date and this is why we need professional people who are working in the industry teaching our kids up to date material, hands on with good common sense approach.

    You may not like what you read but believe me you read it here first, the young people today are in the process of evolving and we need to help them by giving them better access to different teaching and a better way of assessing them than examinations as this too is outmoded. Experience is far better than qualifications but put them both together and you have something good.

    Sorry for the rant but I feel very strongly about a fair day's pay for a fair day's work and for most of our teachers we all realise that it is a damn good number for some and it needs to change.
    Last edited by bossman; 2nd August 2012 at 10:56 PM.

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