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General Chat Thread, Petition to remove Michael Gove in General; @all: The whole idea is to drive all state schools to become academies so the private market can become involved ...
  1. #31

    bossman's Avatar
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    @all:

    The whole idea is to drive all state schools to become academies so the private market can become involved and quite frankly the only people who will suffer most is teachers as they lose all benefits attached to the job.

    You will of course get those schools who try to keep going as a state funded school but will have to fight very hard to maintain that status.

    Privatisation is upon us in a big way, just look at America and this is the way our country is going over the next 10 years believe me.

    Sorry for sounding callous but this is the way of the world.

  2. #32

    witch's Avatar
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    But is it the way of the world @bossman? And how on earth do you make a profit out of education? After all, that is what a private company is all about. If you mean we should follow the American model then I would like to know why?
    I dont think we will lose state education, I think we will end up with the scandinavian model where they have both state and independent schools which may not charge fees. The funding is with the child, not the school
    I say again - I am not comparing unqualified teachers with teachers with no experience of the real world, or parenthood or any of that.
    Maybe at senior school level an unqualified specialist is a good thing - but at my school's level, i think the best teachers are those with a teaching qualification and real-world experience

  3. #33

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    But is it the way of the world @bossman? And how on earth do you make a profit out of education? After all, that is what a private company is all about. If you mean we should follow the American model then I would like to know why?
    I dont think we will lose state education,
    I've thought for a while that Gove has been trying to privatise education by the back door, hoping no one would notice. What where the first three changes he made - cancel BSF, introduce Free Schools, open up Academies. The general view around here is that by the end of this 5 yr term all secondaries will be forced into becoming Acadamies which loosens the control of the LEA and breaks the teachers national pay scales.

    If they win a second term how long will it be until rules are relaxed on what schools can and can't charge parents? I don't think well see the end of free state education, and free schooling will be available some how - but maybe schools will be able to set an expectation in their admissions policy in order to afford a better education....

    Sounds like a very Tory model to me

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  5. #34

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    But is it the way of the world @bossman? And how on earth do you make a profit out of education? After all, that is what a private company is all about. If you mean we should follow the American model then I would like to know why?
    Nearly every academy I've come across has been sponsored by a charitable trust, rather than a for profit company. Sure, there are some private companies sponsoring them too - but remember that they more than likely get tax breaks for it.

    I dont think we will lose state education, I think we will end up with the scandinavian model where they have both state and independent schools which may not charge fees. The funding is with the child, not the school
    Yup. And the Scandinavian education systems are amongst the best in the world.

    I say again - I am not comparing unqualified teachers with teachers with no experience of the real world, or parenthood or any of that.
    Maybe at senior school level an unqualified specialist is a good thing - but at my school's level, i think the best teachers are those with a teaching qualification and real-world experience
    I agree with the view that lower school teaching should be done by qualified people - teaching a 5 year old is *very* different to teaching a 16 year old.

    Also that last sentiment about both teaching qualifications and real-world experience. Teachers like that are so rare as to be almost non-existent in my experience. They normally have one or the other.

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  7. #35
    Gibson335's Avatar
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    From personal experience, the nicest, most decent, most reasonable teachers I have worked with over the past 18 years have been those with some work experience outside of teaching. They have had a better appreciation of support staff, and a more grounded view of their own careers, a more realistic view of how hard or otherwise the life of a teacher actually is. They also happen(ed) to be damn fine teachers. Likewise, the best techs and engineers I have worked with have carried no chip on their shoulders about where they fit in with the overall scheme of things.

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  9. #36

    witch's Avatar
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    Just a thought though - why would someone want to come in as an unqualified teacher when the pay is not good? I hope it isnt because they couldnt cut it in the real world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossman View Post
    @all:

    The whole idea is to drive all state schools to become academies so the private market can become involved and quite frankly the only people who will suffer most is teachers as they lose all benefits attached to the job.

    You will of course get those schools who try to keep going as a state funded school but will have to fight very hard to maintain that status.

    Privatisation is upon us in a big way, just look at America and this is the way our country is going over the next 10 years believe me.

    Sorry for sounding callous but this is the way of the world.
    You nailed it in one, but just because it's the way of the world doesn't mean that we have to stand there and do nothing about it, Birmingham City Council have stopped the last eight primary academies going through as Gove wanted the council to foot the 1.3 million bill left behind by the closing schools, and another interesting rumor is that BCC are starting their own academic trust in a bid to preserve the LA structure and resources. Mine seems to have escaped for now but we we're told we'd go in January any way, so we still might get more spanners thrown at us

    From my point of view it's awful being stuck in the crossfire between Gove, The Press and BCC as no body is giving straight answers to any questions we've asked. Education should remain essentially a free service, same as the NHS.

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  12. #38

    plexer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    But is it the way of the world @bossman? And how on earth do you make a profit out of education? After all, that is what a private company is all about.
    Enterprise in school kids get taught to run a business and sell their goods and services, not going to make millions granted

    Ben

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  14. #39
    DocHouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Just a thought though - why would someone want to come in as an unqualified teacher when the pay is not good? I hope it isn't because they couldn't cut it in the real world?
    My thoughts exactly, although if they couldn't cope in the real world chances are they'd be better out of the education world as well... I'd rather have a well qualified, motivated, professional with years of experience than an inexperienced, poorly motivated, non teacher looking to escape the professional world... I've seen far too many think they can do it and either screw up badly or disappear mid term with no explanation.

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    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    I hope it isnt because they couldnt cut it in the real world?
    One could equally argue that that is the description of a teacher who came straight from uni. As has been said above, the best answer is to require both QTS and a set number of year experience outside of education that way you get trained people who want to teach and really know their subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by ridpool_John View Post
    Education should remain essentially a free service, same as the NHS.
    Nobody would disagree with you there but don't imagine the NHS are coming away from this administration unscathed. Probably the worst change to the NHS they are proposing (don't think it's happened yet) is giving GP's the money and making them accountable for how they spend it on treating patients which could see patients being sent miles to cheaper hospitals or not given expensive drug treatments. I want my GP to do whats right for me not whats right for his accountant!

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  18. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    schools have historically protected their teachers, and when a teacher does leave, they still get a good reference and just walk into another job. Which is partly what this entire thing is about.
    This happens in Colleges too - I've seen many a bad lecturer resigning on the promise of a good reference rather than them being sacked which could be a costly or lengthy exercise if a union gets involved.
    Last edited by Fazza; 4th August 2012 at 10:04 AM.

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  20. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    And the Scandinavian education systems are amongst the best in the world.
    Sez who based on what *evidence*? The evidence is certainly not PISA for Sweden where we got those free schools from + their system is hardly controversy free amongst the Swedish (very divisory etc.) Finland is up there in silver, but that can't possibly be replicated here. Norway came 9th. I think we should be grateful for the import of Sophie Grabol, but perhaps leave the rest where it is for now.

    Too, too much spin for too long from every side and I think many core realities have been burried very deeplyunder Orwellian groupthink etc. Education would surely benefit if we got all the politicians, LEAs, heads/teacher associations, unions, any remotely self-interested party to shut the bleep up, threw away all the derisory 'wisdom' ("every student.. full potential", "excellence for all", "blahdy-fib-fib-blah"), pointed a few disinterested proper rocket scientists at the data and got them to read out some *honest* conclusions whilst hooked up to lie-detectors attached to gatling guns just to make sure...

    ..and then tested it, validated the theory against the results, *before* rolling it out to the nation.
    Last edited by PiqueABoo; 4th August 2012 at 02:38 PM.

  21. #43

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiqueABoo View Post
    Sez who based on what *evidence*? The evidence is certainly not PISA for Sweden where we got those free schools from + their system is hardly controversy free amongst the Swedish (very divisory etc.) Finland is up there in silver, but that can't possibly be replicated here. Norway came 9th. I think we should be grateful for the import of Sophie Grabol, but perhaps leave the rest where it is for now.
    2010 OECD. Norway are above the UK in Reading, Maths and Science. Denmark are above the UK in reading and Maths (but ever so slightly below us with science). Sweden are above us with Reading but below us in Maths and Science.

    So, on the balance, Norway are 9th, Sweden 15th, Denmark 19th and the UK is 20th.

    If you include Finland, they make our system look like a shambles. They come second after South Korea in first...

  22. #44

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Just a thought though - why would someone want to come in as an unqualified teacher when the pay is not good? I hope it isnt because they couldnt cut it in the real world?
    The food technology teacher who joined the high school I went to as a teen (joined just before I left) had decided to retire from industry to have a more comfortable life. His job previously had been industrial scale cooking - designing the processes needed to mass produce food. The grades for the subject went up hugely when he took over from the incumbent who had only ever been a teacher and hit retirement age. Sure, he also had to go through teacher training, but I wouldn't appoint all the gains purely to that.

    Your question could also be asked of many of us here - why do so many of us, with significant skills in IT which would pay a *lot* better in industry, continue to work in education where we're undervalued and underpaid?

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  24. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    So, on the balance, Norway are 9th, Sweden 15th, Denmark 19th and the UK is 20th.
    Which is the balance I gave it - PISA is the OECD study you're looking at. Finn-style can't happen, but Canada + New Zealand + Australia look pretty good - what do they do? Do all our good educators get sick of it and emigrate?
    Last edited by PiqueABoo; 4th August 2012 at 03:12 PM.

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