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General Chat Thread, Adobe - Education Announcement (1 Dec) in General; Originally Posted by localzuk We want them to learn transferable skills, but there's no reason we shouldn't allow them to ...
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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    We want them to learn transferable skills, but there's no reason we shouldn't allow them to use the software they'll meet in the real world. If they go into design, Photoshop will be the tool of choice, not Gimp, but they should know what the smudge tool does in general.

    Trying to move head long into an entirely free, online based system is unrealistic and not entirely useful to the students IMO.
    Yep, using only one product (even if it is a good and free one) is not a good thing.

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    dhicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Trying to move head long into an entirely free, online based system is unrealistic and not entirely useful to the students IMO.
    It was the phrase "pressure (maybe) at home to purchase" that struck me - if a school wants a pupil to use a particular bit of software at home then it should make sure that bit of software is available for free to the pupil. This could well mean that the school itself has to pay for a home install-and-use copy / website subscription / whatever, of course, and you'd hope Adobe have that figured out and a suitible licensing solution set to go with this new anouncement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Yep, using only one product (even if it is a good and free one) is not a good thing.
    Use several free products to teach transferable skills. At least with something that students can use at home there is a chance they will get interested and learn the software to create decent coursework. In an old school style teaching IT suite, the amount of time in lessons that students will get to 'master' photoshop is going to be minimal - it's quite a complicated piece of software. Teachers are better off using a several simpler, free pieces of software to get result for the masses faster, increasing the level of transferable skills, whilst encouraging would be designers and photographers (which is a very small minority) to get photoshop for themselves at home. This is what the maths physics departments do - encourage the bright students to use Yorik, tex and Matlab at home whilst using using standard office apps for everyone else.

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    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    It was the phrase "pressure (maybe) at home to purchase" that struck me - if a school wants a pupil to use a particular bit of software at home then it should make sure that bit of software is available for free to the pupil. This could well mean that the school itself has to pay for a home install-and-use copy / website subscription / whatever, of course, and you'd hope Adobe have that figured out and a suitible licensing solution set to go with this new anouncement.
    Oh dear. Reading back I can see how my saying "pressure (maybe) at home to purchase" - I'll change that to reflect more what I meant in my head. I didn't actually mean it from a school perspective. We use CS3 but I would never put pressure on the pupils to purchase that software.

    What I meant (in my head) was that Adobe are rather short sighted in having such a high priced piece of software. If it was cheaper for the schools then it would benefit Adobe (not me or the school) in the long run.

    I didn't make that clear at all.

    Gareth

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    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Still no announcement.

    GJE

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    dhicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garethedmondson View Post
    What I meant (in my head) was that Adobe are rather short sighted in having such a high priced piece of software. If it was cheaper for the schools then it would benefit Adobe (not me or the school) in the long run.
    I think I see what you're getting at - if Adobe brings out a cheaper option to the £7,000-odd it costs for a whole-school license for Adobe Master Suite, then maybe pupils/parents will pester the school to buy that cheaper option? I think this new Acrobat and Photoshop/Premier Elements package sounds like it might be a good alternative - going by the recent reviews, both are now excellent packages, with more than enough features for the average home user / school pupil. I have, I think, version 7 of Photoshop/Premier Elements at home, and both are very usable and capable packages.

    I get the impression software companies are very keen to move to subscription / software as a service models of payment - if you search Google, you'll see a bunch of posts from around 2008 about Adobe releasing a web-based version of Photoshop. I imagine that would have been Flash based, hence the Apple/Adobe war about Flash on the iPad - Adobe have now released a native iPad version of Photoshop. I think if any large software business is looking at moving to subscription-based sales then there must be advantages for them, whether that be lesser development / distribution costs, better customer lock-in or simply that they can make more money over a period of time compared with selling a product upgrade to someone every 3 years or so.

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    garethedmondson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    I think I see what you're getting at - if Adobe brings out a cheaper option to the £7,000-odd it costs for a whole-school license for Adobe Master Suite, then maybe pupils/parents will pester the school to buy that cheaper option? I think this new Acrobat and Photoshop/Premier Elements package sounds like it might be a good alternative - going by the recent reviews, both are now excellent packages, with more than enough features for the average home user / school pupil. I have, I think, version 7 of Photoshop/Premier Elements at home, and both are very usable and capable packages.
    SOmetimes I don't know myself what I am getting at. Microsoft finally saw sense in releasing a cheaper license model. Adobe should do the same - get that market share in the schools. Pupils will become familiar with the software and it may (or may not) benefit Adobe in the future when these same pupils go out into the real world.

    If Creative Suite isn't in the schools then pupils will not hear about it. (Yes we know they will but hopefully you see what I mean).

    I think if we could get the full master suite for around £1 - 2K per year with updates then I believe more schools would take it on board. The Microsoft license has saved us a fortune and means we could go WIndows 7 and O2K10 - Okay there are free alternatives that I could use. - but I chose not to.

    Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    if you search Google, you'll see a bunch of posts from around 2008 about Adobe releasing a web-based version of Photoshop. I imagine that would have been Flash based
    Huh? Adobe did release a web-based version of Photoshop called Photoshop Express and it is Flash-based. It's still available to use today.

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    dhicks (2nd December 2011), TheScarfedOne (1st December 2011)

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethedmondson View Post
    Pupils will become familiar with the software and it may (or may not) benefit Adobe in the future when these same pupils go out into the real world.
    I agree. Both Microsoft (with DreamSpark, The Ultimate Steal etc.) and AutoDesk (with their Education Community) realise the value in making their software available to students for free or at a very low cost. Why don't Adobe?

    The student and teacher editions of Adobe's Creative Suite range from £237.60 to £571.20 which IMO is still too expensive. How many parents are going to buy this software for the sons/daughters when it costs almost as much (or more than!) the laptop it will run on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    I agree. Both Microsoft (with DreamSpark, The Ultimate Steal etc.) and AutoDesk (with their Education Community) realise the value in making their software available to students for free or at a very low cost. Why don't Adobe?
    adobe are eventually catching on. Back in the day Microsoft practically encouraged students to pirate their software and I dare say adobe have done the same. Now the internet has changed, a momentum has built up (mostly from the film industry) portraying piracy as an evil, rather than a strategic method of making software available to potential customers. This isn't really the sort of image major software vendors can portray nowadays, hence the move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    I agree. Both Microsoft (with DreamSpark, The Ultimate Steal etc.) and AutoDesk (with their Education Community) realise the value in making their software available to students for free or at a very low cost. Why don't Adobe?

    The student and teacher editions of Adobe's Creative Suite range from £237.60 to £571.20 which IMO is still too expensive. How many parents are going to buy this software for the sons/daughters when it costs almost as much (or more than!) the laptop it will run on?
    this is exactly what I was getting at. glad someone could make sense of my ramblings. As it stands I have not heard anything from Adobe on their Twitter - @adobeukedu or on their website.

    Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd View Post
    adobe are eventually catching on. Back in the day Microsoft practically encouraged students to pirate their software and I dare say adobe have done the same. Now the internet has changed, a momentum has built up (mostly from the film industry) portraying piracy as an evil, rather than a strategic method of making software available to potential customers. This isn't really the sort of image major software vendors can portray nowadays, hence the move.
    My pupils tell me of a site were you can download CS5.5 for a cheap price with downloads available almost immediately.

    I'm sure you could download it pretty quickly as well if you had a fast Bband connection. Adobe need to make it cheap enough that it doesn't get pirated.

    Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethedmondson View Post
    My pupils tell me of a site were you can download CS5.5 for a cheap price with downloads available almost immediately.
    I don't doubt it. It's something the large commercial vendors are secretly happy with. There's very little protection in certain software, and that has to be down to encouraging home use. This always helps bring software into institutions.

    I used to pretty much live on pirated software; since the amiga days, then windows. Now I've just adjusted to running mostly open source or free to use software.
    I know this doesn't sit well in a lot of schools. The argument for 'industry standard' has never really convinced me, I don't think schools should pander to what's best for a particular industry. If the industry is that interested they will pay for their software to be used. Otherwise it's what works for the school. Having simple to use applications that are accessible from anywhere on a ubiquity of platforms has a greater benefit to teaching and learning than costly solution that is restricted in its use.

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    I've been told that the announcement is not happening now until Monday.

    Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by garethedmondson View Post
    My pupils tell me of a site were you can download CS5.5 for a cheap price with downloads available almost immediately.

    I'm sure you could download it pretty quickly as well if you had a fast Bband connection. Adobe need to make it cheap enough that it doesn't get pirated.

    Gareth
    Did they mention the site? Even with student discount, I've not seen it for less than £300 (which I still don't consider cheap!)

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